Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

Personally Bennett will be the story I look forward to the most next season. I am really pulling for the guy, and I would love to see him have a break out season to shut some critics up.

This was me as well but before last season. Unfortunately he went something like 16 or 17 games without a point to start the season. Turned me into a critic instead. You'll follow suit Nov/Dec of this season.

[GreenLantern2814]

I am willing to allow for the possibility that Glen Gulutzan simply had no idea how to handle Bennett's development as a centre.

I am also willing to allow that Bennett's head had to be spinning from all the different roles he was asked to fill last season. 3rd line centre, 1st line winger, 3rd line winger, he was all over the place.

I think if Peters calls Bennett in June (or now. Whenever) and tells him "Sammy, we expect you to be the #1RW and play with Johnny and Sean from day 1", then the move to the wing can be a success.

I think the way you don't handle it is by saying "We made the playoffs with Sam Bennett as the #3C" and doing little/nothing to help him get better.

Bennett's not bad defensively. He's a very impatient player, likely because he doesn't think the game fast enough. Until he learns to play the game better, be as dominant as his physical tools would allow.

[Bingo]

If I'm Peters I look at Bennett as a mental case, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

They need to find a way to get him 20 games of success with results. They do that and they never look back. If they don't the next team will.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

I think there was a dearth of teaching in this last coaching regime. We saw that he gained some positive steps under Hartley, but due to Bob's lack of defensive focus, his defensive game suffered. Then we had Gulutzan et al confuse the hell out of him for a couple of years, and do little effective teaching (otherwise we wouldn't see the same mistakes from him time and again). This led to a regression in his play and mediocre results.

I only have to look at the effect that Jagr had on him in a short amount of time. When he was healthy, that line was all kinds of dangerous (along with Jankowski). Nobody can sit here and tell me that Jagr wasn't a much more effective teacher than Gulutzan has ever been. As soon as Jagr was shelved with injuries, Sam's game regressed again. Part of that has to do with the drop in talent as Hathaway can't hold a candle to a legendary hall of famer, but still, Sam just didn't look the same or show the same passion.

Could we hire Jagr as a special skill consultant? I still say the teaching he could do would be extremely beneficial to a team. His experience and success is second to none, and if given a full season he could really develop some players. I harken back to his time spent with the Panthers where he turned Barkov and Huberdeau into perennial all-star level players, and even had a hand in turning Marchessault into the force he is now.

Sam just needs a good mentor. It will fix a lot of the problems in his game.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm still careful with Bennett, as I think he pans out as a second line player with jam and an important piece going forward.

His on ice shooting percentage of 5.81% (all situations) is pretty unfathomable and certainly bound to bounce back when you consider some of the tools he has.

He was 8.03% the previous season for example.

And to add, if he only pans out as a third liner with jam is that worth getting rid of for a crappy pick? Not in my opinion.

He's disappointed as a 4th overall, but when you wipe that from your memory and just look at him as a prospect he will likely have decent to great value for us at the NHL level.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bingo

If I'm Peters I look at Bennett as a mental case, and I don't mean that in a negative way.

They need to find a way to get him 20 games of success with results. They do that and they never look back. If they don't the next team will.

Peter seems very pragmatic in this sense, or at least he comes off that way in his interviews. I have high hopes he'll make some very quick gains on Brodie and Bennett.

[Dr. Doom]

I'm sorry what is different about next season with Bennett? New coach?

This guy hasn't shown me any reason to believe his mental toughness/confidence will bounce back. It was the failed pull-up that started it all!

[AC]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

This guy hasn't shown me any reason to believe his mental toughness/confidence will bounce back. It was the failed pull-up that started it all!

With one healthy shoulder?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Dr. Doom

I'm sorry what is different about next season with Bennett? New coach?

Sometimes young players improve. It's a crazy concept I know. Bennett isn't even 22 yet. To think he's peaked or declining seems silly to me. New coach may help as well though, you're right there. Most players aren't fully developed by age 21. Gaudreau at 21 was just breaking into the NHL. Jankowski broke into the NHL at age 23. Bennett only turns 22 this summer. In broad NHL terms he's still a very, very young player. Did he develop as fast as some other top 5 picks have? Nope, but lots of top 5 picks don't develop into stars right away and Bennett did miss almost his entire post draft year due to surgery.

It's like people forget how young he is cause he's been around so long already? Or perhaps people forget that young players typically improve over the first 5 years of their NHL careers?

Seems crazy to me that people want to give up on Bennett's potential at the young age he is. When did Backlund figure things out? 7 years after he was drafted. We just gave Jankowski 6 years of development before he made the NHL and we're willing to give up on our highest pick after 5 years? Crazy talk.

Everyone would have loved for Bennett to have developed into a star already. But fan impatience is not a strong reason to give up on his potential. Still plenty of time for Bennett to figure things out and become a valuable top two line player for the Flames.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Coaches have a heck of a huge impact not only on players' stats, but also in development.

Just look up North in Edmonton. Or even just look back at Calgary. Iginla's first year under Brent Sutter saw him with a healthy point reduction, only to rebound the following season when given better line-mates and/or time to adjust to a new system.

Just take a look at Derek Engelland this year. Mason Raymond in Vancouver vs Toronto vs Calgary. Teammates/line mates, opportunities, systems... they all impact a player.

Some coaches seem to really be great with young players. I think we saw this with Hartley (Gaudreau, Monahan, Brodie, Jooris, Colborne, etc., etc.,). His track record also goes back to Atlanta and Denver with notable young players just exploding under him. Some coaches are overly critical or overly favor vets.

If that is not convincing, just take a look at the Flames over the last 10 years under various coaches. While it isn't always a fair comparison, you do at least start seeing trends where a coach will tighten up the game and have the systems focus on defence (like Brent Sutter) while others prefer a more 2-way or even an offensively focused system like Keenan. You can see the swings in the GA and the GF year to year.

Some players get stifled under a certain system, or aren't provided with a long enough opportunities, or just need a coach that can help provide confidence in the transition years into the NHL. Even vets moving from team to team will see notable drop-offs and notable increases.

Jury is out on Bennett (and Peters - will be interesting to see the changes in play-style) until it happens (or not). I don't think one can make an argument that coaching doesn't have a major impact on young and developing players, as we can see a long list of young players and vets having their numbers impacted given their roles.

[868904]

I'm going to say this again and again until Bennett reads this or someone in the Flames organization reads it and passes it on to him.

Bennett needs to work on his shot. Not just the velocity of the shot but how quickly he gets it off. This kid is fearless and he has the ability to cycle and elude defenders and get into the hard scoring areas but the problem is, he doesn't have an elite shot to score.

Kid needs to just work with heavy pucks all summer long, shooting 1000 times from all kinds of game situations: off the wing, cycling from the boards, one timers, slap shots from the wing.

Kid is fearless and can get to the scoring areas, that's something that you can't teach, problem is he doesn't have the finish right now but he can work on it.

He really is very similar to Kesler, who also didn't put up much points though the first few seasons but really exploded offensively after developing a one timer, he became a power play weapon for the Canucks and the improved shot also gave him all kinds of offensive confidence.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Sometimes young players improve. It's a crazy concept I know. Bennett isn't even 22 yet. To think he's peaked or declining seems silly to me. New coach may help as well though, you're right there. Most players aren't fully developed by age 21. Gaudreau at 21 was just breaking into the NHL. Jankowski broke into the NHL at age 23. Bennett only turns 22 this summer. In broad NHL terms he's still a very, very young player. Did he develop as fast as some other top 5 picks have? Nope, but lots of top 5 picks don't develop into stars right away and Bennett did miss almost his entire post draft year due to surgery.

It's like people forget how young he is cause he's been around so long already? Or perhaps people forget that young players typically improve over the first 5 years of their NHL careers?

Seems crazy to me that people want to give up on Bennett's potential at the young age he is. When did Backlund figure things out? 7 years after he was drafted. We just gave Jankowski 6 years of development before he made the NHL and we're willing to give up on our highest pick after 5 years? Crazy talk.

Everyone would have loved for Bennett to have developed into a star already. But fan impatience is not a strong reason to give up on his potential. Still plenty of time for Bennett to figure things out and become a valuable top two line player for the Flames.

A lot of the issues with Bennett are optics around his draft pedigree and him entering the league so young. If Bennett had entered the league at 20 years old and put up 11 goals and 26 points from our 3rd line, everyone would be exciting about our solid young prospect with lots of room to grow.

Since he entered the league at 18 and already has 3 full seasons, everyone expects him to increase his numbers every year. I don't really get this line of thought. Bennett is not only very young, but he's getting anything but sheltered minutes. A lot of other teams would play Bennett on their PP unit and gift him top 6 minutes. Calgary has recognized Bennett as a better 2 way player and is forcing him to work on his two way game. Of course his offensive numbers will be decreased in that scenario.

If Bennett still hasn't put it together at 24-25, that's when it's time to say we waited too long.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Sometimes young players improve. It's a crazy concept I know. Bennett isn't even 22 yet. To think he's peaked or declining seems silly to me. New coach may help as well though, you're right there. Most players aren't fully developed by age 21. Gaudreau at 21 was just breaking into the NHL. Jankowski broke into the NHL at age 23. Bennett only turns 22 this summer. In broad NHL terms he's still a very, very young player. Did he develop as fast as some other top 5 picks have? Nope, but lots of top 5 picks don't develop into stars right away and Bennett did miss almost his entire post draft year due to surgery.

It's like people forget how young he is cause he's been around so long already? Or perhaps people forget that young players typically improve over the first 5 years of their NHL careers?

Seems crazy to me that people want to give up on Bennett's potential at the young age he is. When did Backlund figure things out? 7 years after he was drafted. We just gave Jankowski 6 years of development before he made the NHL and we're willing to give up on our highest pick after 5 years? Crazy talk.

Everyone would have loved for Bennett to have developed into a star already. But fan impatience is not a strong reason to give up on his potential. Still plenty of time for Bennett to figure things out and become a valuable top two line player for the Flames.

Monahan and Tkachuk are similar high picks that at 18 were good players and getting better every season. Monahan is now an elite scorer and Tkachuk is on the same path. These are his comparables, not Backlund and Jankowski.

Bennett after his entry level contract had a bad year on the first year of his show me bridge contract. Doesn't show much hope for this season.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Monahan and Tkachuk are similar high picks that at 18 were good players and getting better every season. Monahan is now an elite scorer and Tkachuk is on the same path. These are his comparables, not Backlund and Jankowski.

Bennett after his entry level contract had a bad year on the first year of his show me bridge contract. Doesn't show much hope for this season.

Disagree. You were spoiled by Monahan and Tkachuk’s development. Every player is different. Just because Bennett has had some struggles does not mean there’s no hope for him putting it all together.

You choose not to see the hope. The hope is certainly there.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by blankall

A lot of the issues with Bennett are optics around his draft pedigree and him entering the league so young.
If Bennett still hasn't put it together at 24-25, that's when it's time to say we waited too long.

At this point, optics of draft pedigree and draft position shouldn't even matter. It's been 4years since he's been drafted, there have been more than enough future stars who have been drafted during those 4 years. I love it when coaches reiterate at training camp that they don't discriminate against top draft picks/college -FA's/camp invitees etc, Bennett shouldn't get a pass because of his 4th OA status.

"We waited 7years for our 4th OA pick to put it together but it didn't work out, oh well" is exactly what we god damn want to avoid. I don't want Tre to wait until Bennett is 24/25 before he makes a decision on him. By the time that happens he'll have lost every ounce of trade value that he has while not adding any significant value to this team.

I could care less about upside risk if he can be packaged for someone like ROR but the downside risk increases every single day that he doesn't get better.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Disagree. You were spoiled by Monahan and Tkachuk’s development. Every player is different. Just because Bennett has had some struggles does not mean there’s no hope for him putting it all together.

You choose not to see the hope. The hope is certainly there.

I see a fan base being blinded by its own player and holding hope because he was a 4th overall pick and highest Flames pick ever. He's young and works hard is all I can muster.

His shot is weak, he's not that fast, his skating has regressed and he's been declining since his rookie season. Half way through his show me contract he had a terrible season. Took him 16-17 games to register a point. He failed at center and shows no top line promise. Players keep passing him on depth charts. If he's only 3rd line capable we have Dube, Mangi, Klimchuk etc that can fill that void on wing.

I had hope going into last season but now I'd get an asset/pick or include him in a trade to upgrade our top 6 and move on.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by pepper24

I see a fan base being blinded by its own player and holding hope because he was a 4th overall pick and highest Flames pick ever. He's young and works hard is all I can muster.

His shot is weak, he's not that fast, his skating has regressed and he's been declining since his rookie season. Half way through his show me contract he had a terrible season. Took him 16-17 games to register a point. He failed at center and shows no top line promise. Players keep passing him on depth charts. If he's only 3rd line capable we have Dube, Mangi, Klimchuk etc that can fill that void on wing.

I had hope going into last season but now I'd get an asset/pick or include him in a trade to upgrade our top 6 and move on.

He's fast, just playing with linemates who can't keep up, stifling his play. He played more sheltered minutes with better linemates in his 1st season. I'm certainly not prepared to say that a 22-year-old has "failed" at centre and has "no top line promise", when ideally he would have had several years in the minors before even landing in Calgary. The players you claim could easily replace him are his same age, and they are in the minors.

If he is young, works hard, and has the tools, he will improve under a more inspired system with better-suited linemates. You don't trade a player with his potential who actually cares as part of a package unless you're getting a superstar in return.

I certainly hope that management understands player development and utilization better than those who think we should trade Bennett for half a magic bean.

[GioforPM]

The linemates excuse has some merit, but it also takes away the player responsibility. He needs to show he can be a good player, linemates or no.

It's funny - lots of the people who say "Ferland is a third line player who only gets goals because he's playing with Johnny and Monahan" are the same ones who say "Bennett would be a great player if he got to play with Johnny and Monahan".

[blankall]

Originally Posted by yourbestfriend

At this point, optics of draft pedigree and draft position shouldn't even matter. It's been 4years since he's been drafted, there have been more than enough future stars who have been drafted during those 4 years. I love it when coaches reiterate at training camp that they don't discriminate against top draft picks/college -FA's/camp invitees etc, Bennett shouldn't get a pass because of his 4th OA status.

"We waited 7years for our 4th OA pick to put it together but it didn't work out, oh well" is exactly what we god damn want to avoid. I don't want Tre to wait until Bennett is 24/25 before he makes a decision on him. By the time that happens he'll have lost every ounce of trade value that he has while not adding any significant value to this team.

I could care less about upside risk if he can be packaged for someone like ROR but the downside risk increases every single day that he doesn't get better.

There's been a lot of young players recently, who've made immediate impacts after 1 or 2 years of being drafted, but this isn't the norm. Iginla didn't crack 60 points until year 5.

Bennett still has all the tools to be that 60+ point tenacious centre he was predicted to be. We don't know what we have yet and just need to be patient. Either way, it makes no sense to sell low on Bennett.

[yourbestfriend]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

The linemates excuse has some merit, but it also takes away the player responsibility. He needs to show he can be a good player, linemates or no.

It's funny - lots of the people who say "Ferland is a third line player who only gets goals because he's playing with Johnny and Monahan" are the same ones who say "Bennett would be a great player if he got to play with Johnny and Monahan".

I don't buy the line mates excuse one bit. Monahan scored 22 with Stempniak and David freaking Jones. Johnny will put up points with anyone he plays with. Tkachuk started to show at the end of the season that he can be the driver of the 3M line.

In the last 2 seasons, Bennett hasn't shown in any sense he can be that kind of impact player. Bennett is closer to a 3rd line player than Ferland is. At least Ferland's shown he can hang with the top line and produce at that level.