Ukraine Presidential Crackdown Violence. Russia Invades Ukraine

[Jets4Life]

A minefield that was just constructed on the Ukraine-Crimea boundary by the Russians:

[Jets4Life]

Ukranians dressed in traditional outfits, welcoming invading German troops to the Ukraine, 1941:



Months later, the Germans would show their true colors, and the Ukranians would turn on them.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

It's not that easy.

The Germans are an incredibly bad example (no offense), because of their issues with race. In fact, it can be argued that the racial policy of Nazi Germany cost them the war on Russia, as Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Latvians, Cossacks, and other groups of ethnic minorities welcomed them with parades in 1941.

Unfortunately, those ethnic groups soon found that as bad as a Stalin controlled government was, it was superior to the Nazis plan to enslave most of the Slavic people, to work in labor camps, or kill the intellectuals outright.

If you have an invading force that the local population finds favorable to Putin's version of Russia, resistance would not be as fierce as it was in the Second World War.

Cossacks are not an ethnic group.

And in no way were Stalin's policies "superior" to the Nazis. I actually find that statement rather offensive, although I don't blame you personally.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Cossacks are not an ethnic group.

Not to nitpick, but that's debatable. Russia recognizes the Cossacks as an ethnic group.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

Not to nitpick, but that's debatable. Russia recognizes the Cossacks as an ethnic group.

It's just one more way that they can try to divide people. Cossacks are a military caste. There are Russian Cossacks, Ukrainian Cossacks, Tatar Cossacks, Latvian Cossacks, Lithuanian Cossacks, and so on. I have never met a Ukrainian Cossack who wasn't a Ukrainian first.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

It's just one more way that they can try to divide people. Cossacks are a military caste. There are Russian Cossacks, Ukrainian Cossacks, Tatar Cossacks, Latvian Cossacks, Lithuanian Cossacks, and so on. I have never met a Ukrainian Cossack who wasn't a Ukrainian first.

What about Lienz Cossacks?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by nik-

What about Lienz Cossacks?

What about them...


They were a mixture of Russians and Ukrainians that sided with the Nazis.

[nik-]

It was a Goldeneye joke

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Its hard to believe this has slipped off the front page...

if this goes any further sideways NATO could be pulled into a war they aren't ready for...which could go nuclear

this sucks

[undercoverbrother]

I watched vice news dispatch 5, and it is all about the Chetniks and how they have gone up to Crimea to help........this should go well

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Its hard to believe this has slipped off the front page...

if this goes any further sideways NATO could be pulled into a war they aren't ready for...which could go nuclear

this sucks

Well I don't think it's ever going to get to the point your thinking about, certainly not nuclear. But it could turn into a civil war type situation, with Russia aiding one side and the west aiding another.

I have a real hard time imagining what the end to this is because I'm not sure what Putin's end game is. I don't think he knows. I don't think he thought it through to be honest, he's boxed himself in a bit of a corner. There aren't a lot of scenarios that are good for him. Even if he 'gets' Crimea (any one of a few scenarios that could be called different things, but basically are the same) he has done so at great cost to his country and reputation. And that's basically the best it gets for him. I'm not sure he'd be happy with that, as it appears he is already talking about further advances into the Ukraine, and even in that scenario, he loses some face.

If nothing changes, which might be the most likely scenario, Crimea will become some sort of independent state with even closer ties to Russia. Sucks for the Ukraine, but probably better than any alternative. They will probably at least have a more unified populace after that and be free to pursue closer ties with Europe.

Though, there could still be guerrilla type fighting in Eastern Ukraine. Depends on how the different ethnic groups within the Ukraine react, and the pro Ukrainian citizens act in and around Crimea.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Daradon

Well I don't think it's ever going to get to the point your thinking about, certainly not nuclear. But it could turn into a civil war type situation, with Russia aiding one side and the west aiding another.

I have a real hard time imagining what the end to this is because I'm not sure what Putin's end game is. I don't think he knows. I don't think he thought it through to be honest, he's boxed himself in a bit of a corner. There aren't a lot of scenarios that are good for him. Even if he 'gets' Crimea (any one of a few scenarios that could be called different things, but basically are the same) he has done so at great cost to his country and reputation. And that's basically the best it gets for him. I'm not sure he'd be happy with that, as it appears he is already talking about further advances into the Ukraine, and even in that scenario, he loses some face.

If nothing changes, which might be the most likely scenario, Crimea will become some sort of independent state with even closer ties to Russia. Sucks for the Ukraine, but probably better than any alternative. They will probably at least have a more unified populace after that and be free to pursue closer ties with Europe.

Though, there could still be guerrilla type fighting in Eastern Ukraine. Depends on how the different ethnic groups within the Ukraine react, and the pro Ukrainian citizens act in and around Crimea.

I actually agree. EVEN if Russia gets Crimea, we still lost the situation as whole. Putin seems to change his plan, obvious by the fact that at some point Russia did not deny it was our troops there, then they went into denial again. I still think that the initial plan was to hold a referendum under UN/Osce watch to make it as legal as possible, but then we blocked OSCE from coming and this vote looks like annexation. I just hope for no war now.

[cDnStealth]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

I watched vice news dispatch 5, and it is all about the Chetniks and how they have gone up to Crimea to help........this should go well

This Youtube comment sums up that video nicely.

"It would be better to resolve this issue internally." Said by a Serbian militia member. In Ukraine. About supporting Russian interests in getting the Crimea to secede from Ukraine

Such a weird situation.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by cDnStealth

This Youtube comment sums up that video nicely.

Such a weird situation.

Those boys are bat#### crazy, like old school crazy.

[Coach]

My girl's dad is an NATO engineer for the AWACS plane. She just told me theyre being deployed to Poland and Romania.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...A291F620140310

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Well the closer you can strike Russia at the heart the less they will use nuclear weapons. They won't use them in their own country. The last resort of course. All of Ukraine should have the right to vote in the referendum not just the single territory. If its not the case then yes thier is no legal ground for it. Scotland is doing the same bit because they are part of a bigger entity then just them self's the whole of the people should vote on it. I told everybody this was the first step to the soviet union reform. Putin grew up and served for them. Crimea is just the first of many. The time for intervention is now. History always repeats it's self but can be changed by learning from the past.

I dont support the referendum, but it was Quebec, not Canada, that was voting on independece vote, was not it? And no, it is not the first step in restoring USSR. Restoring USSR would require the conquest of 14 countries, some of which are NATO members. It is both impossible and pointless. Crimea invasion is merely a defensive - yet abysmal and illegal - move to keep the fleet base and box NATO out a bit.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Chances are if Russian Territory was invaded, the Russians would retaliate with a sky shot. A high altitude nuclear detonation over either the ocean or over America itself.

Nobody would be physically harmed, no buildings would be knocked down, but it would play hell with civilian electronics while leaving government and hardened electronics alone.

The other thing you would see would be conventional. A attack at sea would make more sense or a serious of cruise missile attacks on Nato Facilities.

I don't know if you'd want to invade Russia anyways. While this isn't the 1940's anymore and logistics has become more of a science, you would still need a very long and vulnerable supply line that could be easily cut.

But Russia paranoia is part of their mental state because they've been invaded so often and because of the hideous costs of the German Invasion.

If you want to rally Russian Citizens the way to do it, invade Russia.

Any past grievances with the standing government would vanish in a hurry.

Great post

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

Apparently the ballots for the Crimean referendum don't have "No" box.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukra...es-338745.html

Lie. Article says that 1992 Crimean constitution says Crimea is independent state. It doesn't. It says it is part of Ukraine.

Source (in Russian): http://www.qrim.ru/about/docs/Constitution_1992

Республика Крым входит в государство Украина и определяет с ней свои отношения на основе договора и соглашений.

Also in Wikipedia: The constitution establishes the republic's status and authority within Ukraine.

The article, however, still makes a valid - although overblown - point in that 1992 constitution was giving greater autonomy to Crimea than what it has now.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Pointman

Lie. Article says that 1992 Crimean constitution says Crimea is independent state. It doesn't. It says it is part of Ukraine.

If I'm reading it correctly, Crimea has no ability to dissolve itself from Ukraine...which raises a much larger question: What exactly is this referendum for? Just a light and smoke show (which is all I've thought it has been so far)?

[Daradon]

Read a great article in Time last night. Sergei Aksyonov. Who is he, and how did he get to the position is in now, as the de facto leader of Crimea?

Seems to clear up a little bit of the early timeline for me, give it a read.

http://time.com/19097/putin-crimea-r...aine-aksyonov/