Our 6th Overall Pick: Elias Lindholm or Sean Monahan?

[gargamel]

Originally Posted by Red John

It's actually Lindholm that is projecting to be more of a two-way forward while Monahan projects to be an offensive guy.

That sounds to me like neither one of them is expected to be a game changing offensive player. I'd be happy to have either of them (slight preference for Monahan, but wouldn't be upset either way), but I think you have to roll the dice on a potential star in Nichushkin if he's still available when we pick.

[Husky]

Sounds to me like both have Patrice Bergeron type skills. Never going to be a top 10 player in scoring, but Id gladly give up 15-20 points less offensive for a player that makes differences at both ends of the ice versus just one.

[PlayfulGenius]

Originally Posted by gargamel

That sounds to me like neither one of them is expected to be a game changing offensive player. I'd be happy to have either of them (slight preference for Monahan, but wouldn't be upset either way), but I think you have to roll the dice on a potential star in Nichushkin if he's still available when we pick.

I'd take Patrice Bergeron over Ilya Kovalchuk to start the rebuild. I'm not suggesting any of these players in question are like these 2 were at that age as I haven't sen them play...I'm simply arguing against the basic premise of your point. It seems there are many NHL GMs that would agree with you though, as players like Kovalchuk tend to be paid more.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by gargamel

That sounds to me like neither one of them is expected to be a game changing offensive player. I'd be happy to have either of them (slight preference for Monahan, but wouldn't be upset either way), but I think you have to roll the dice on a potential star in Nichushkin if he's still available when we pick.

This is the unfortunate byproduct of going on the winning streak in that the team likely misses out on an elite offensive forward. Still though a solid 2-way center like Patrice Bergeron or Jordan Stahl is a good building block and an important piece. I am still happy to see one of these guys suit up for the Flames one day.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius

I'd take Patrice Bergeron over Ilya Kovalchuk to start the rebuild. I'm not suggesting any of these players in question are like these 2 were at that age as I haven't sen them play...I'm simply arguing against the basic premise of your point. It seems there are many NHL GMs that would agree with you though, as players like Kovalchuk tend to be paid more.

Part of that is health and player demands. If a healthy Patrice Bergeron decided he wanted to be a free agaent and get the best pay cheque he could find, his salary increase significantly.

I think two way centers who can put up 60-75 points are going to see their values jump. These players in the current game have tremendous value.

[The Swedish Flame]

I dreamt that the draft was taking place. Flames picked Lindholm.

There you go!

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by gargamel

That sounds to me like neither one of them is expected to be a game changing offensive player. I'd be happy to have either of them (slight preference for Monahan, but wouldn't be upset either way), but I think you have to roll the dice on a potential star in Nichushkin if he's still available when we pick.

I think it might be smart to do that as well for a team

the rumor is that Nichushkin won't come over for a year right? I could see someone doing that and not tanking but just not being as good as they would be next year and getting a higher pick as well

[Vulcan]

I wouldn't count on Nichuskin coming over for years. Dynamo just paid $10M to trade for him and if Putin is involved there will be heavy pressure on him to stay in Russia. In other words I wouldn't waste any first rounder on him.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by New Era

I think Monahan is getting a lot of hype because he is Canadian. If he were an American or Swedish development system player he wouldn't be generating the hype. That is what concerns me.

Well that is just wrong. Your concern there is an imaginary one. Monahan would still be considered a top prospect as a Swede or American.

I think some people are too concerned about his OHL numbers on a horrible team. Put him on a good team and his numbers would be much higher.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You would have a point about this whole 'stereotype' thing except the fact that if the Flames didn't go on a winning streak at the end of the season that this thread would be about MacKinnnon or Druin who both happen to be Canadian players and what look to be superior prospects. There is no stereotypes going on here and simply a matter of differing opinion on two different players just like it would have been had it been about MacKinnnon or Druin with the 2nd or 3rd overall pick for the Flames. One of them would have been ahead of the other in the poll just as there is here and it has absolutely nothing to do with the nationality of the players and simply the prospect that a small majority thinks is the better pick. Monahan may still be the guy that the Flames pick but accept that some fans would rather the Flames take the Swedish guy.

That's completely fine. I get that.

My point was more that people on here justified their choice of either Monahan or Lindholm by degrading the skill and ability of the other player. I just find it kind of counterproductive to peg either player as lesser to the other. I'm excited to either one in the Flames system due simply to the fact that we'll finally have a centre in the system with skill regardless of which one it is.

[Jing]

Originally Posted by Red John

A lot of stereotypical myths being perpetuated here. Funniest one is that Lindholm is a skilled Euro and better offensive player while Monahan is a gritty Canadian kid with no offensive upside.

Here's what a scout says about the two (taken from THN's preview):





It's actually Lindholm that is projecting to be more of a two-way forward while Monahan projects to be an offensive guy.

THN's rankings seem to deviate from many other draft rankings so I am not sure how accurate the THN preview is. I mean Shinkaruck and Ristolainan at 22/23?

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

That's completely fine. I get that.

My point was more that people on here justified their choice of either Monahan or Lindholm by degrading the skill and ability of the other player. I just find it kind of counterproductive to peg either player as lesser to the other. I'm excited to either one in the Flames system due simply to the fact that we'll finally have a centre in the system with skill regardless of which one it is.

That's fine but people are allowed to like one over the other it's a discussion, if you want everyone like players equally don't read the thread. If you think that you have done more homework down in Abby than the next guy you haven't everyone is reading the same articles, watching the same youtube clips, listening to the same scouts.


I agree they are probably both good players, I just have my suspicions one will turn out to be a better NHL player than the other. It doesn't mean I'm not going to cheer for either player they pick.


Please relax with the "don't anyone like any of the two players better", and "don't you dare compare them to 2nd and 3rd line players"


Honestly all over CP is littered with hyperbole so pick another thread if it hurts your soul so bad to hear people's candid thoughts on potential players that are about to be drafted, and their NHL future carrers.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Yoho

That's fine but people are allowed to like one over the other it's a discussion, if you want everyone like players equally don't read the thread. If you think that you have done more homework down in Abby than the next guy you haven't everyone is reading the same articles, watching the same youtube clips, listening to the same scouts.


I agree they are probably both good players, I just have my suspicions one will turn out to be a better NHL player than the other. It doesn't mean I'm not going to cheer for either player they pick.


Please relax with the "don't anyone like any of the two players better", and "don't you dare compare them to 2nd and 3rd line players"


Honestly all over CP is littered with hyperbole so pick another thread if it hurts your soul so bad to hear people's candid thoughts on potential players that are about to be drafted, and their NHL future carrers.

That's fine preferring another player but you've been ridiculous in your comparison and deserve to be called on it. I'll be happy with whoever the scouts pick as long as Feaster doesn't do something stupid.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Pierre "Monster" McGuire

That's completely fine. I get that.

My point was more that people on here justified their choice of either Monahan or Lindholm by degrading the skill and ability of the other player. I just find it kind of counterproductive to peg either player as lesser to the other. I'm excited to either one in the Flames system due simply to the fact that we'll finally have a centre in the system with skill regardless of which one it is.

The Swedes's coming over from the SEL do not seem to be ready for the NHL.... Rundblad and Erixon for example, These guys were playing major roles on their SEL team and top defenseman on their national team at the worlds and have taken at least 2 years extra to adjust to the NHL.

Same can be said for Granlund.... who was another best player not in the NHL and not making an impact in the NHL.

Even going back to the Sedins... they played another year in the SEL after being drafted and then took 5 years to make a significant impact in the NHL.

The SEL does not prepare players for the NHL.


Karlsson is sort of the exception to the rule... But he took a year after his draft year in the SEL and then spent part of his rookie year in the AHL.


The numbers of SEL players that make an impact in the NHL before they are 22-23 is very small compared to Seguin, Hall, Kane, Doughty, Stamkos Duchense, O'Rielly, Tavares, Phanuef, Richards, Carter, Crosby, Kane etc..


Even slow devlopers like Erble had a 34 goal NHL season at age 21.


PS. It would be even money if Backlund would have made it to the 20 NHL game mark if SuTter didn't get him out of Sweden and into the WHL.


Lindstrom has all but committed to play next year in the SEL.... which from all indications will be a wasted year for NHL development.

[HighLifeMan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

The Swedes's coming over from the SEL do not seem to be ready for the NHL.... Rundblad and Erixon for example, These guys were playing major roles on their SEL team and top defenseman on their national team at the worlds and have taken at least 2 years extra to adjust to the NHL.

The SEL does not prepare players for the NHL.

Jonas Brodin
Patrick Berglund
Nicklas Backstrom
Jakob Silfverberg
Mika Zibanejad
Anze Kopitar
Patric Hornqvist
Marcus Johansson
Victor Hedmen
etc...

These players all jumped directly from the SEL and had an immediate impact on their respective franchises. The SEL does a great job at priming these young kids for NHL.

The numbers of SEL players that make an impact in the NHL before they are 22-23 is very small compared to Seguin, Hall, Kane, Doughty, Stamkos Duchense, O'Rielly, Tavares, Phanuef, Richards, Carter, Crosby, Kane etc..

Hmm..I wonder why that is.
I am sure it has nothing to do with the 75% of NHL players being born in North America.. surely Sweden should produce the same, if not more impact players by the age of 22 then we do!

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Originally Posted by Yoho

That's fine but people are allowed to like one over the other it's a discussion, if you want everyone like players equally don't read the thread. If you think that you have done more homework down in Abby than the next guy you haven't everyone is reading the same articles, watching the same youtube clips, listening to the same scouts.

I agree they are probably both good players, I just have my suspicions one will turn out to be a better NHL player than the other. It doesn't mean I'm not going to cheer for either player they pick.

Please relax with the "don't anyone like any of the two players better", and "don't you dare compare them to 2nd and 3rd line players"

Honestly all over CP is littered with hyperbole so pick another thread if it hurts your soul so bad to hear people's candid thoughts on potential players that are about to be drafted, and their NHL future carrers.

I think you missed what I was saying completely. The point I was trying to make is that people in this thread have their preference of which player they'd like the Flames to draft, but many justify their preference by downplaying the supposed inabilities of the other.

I don't care who you or anybody else prefers, it just feels like we're more or less comparing apples to apples with these two players.

[The Swedish Flame]

Originally Posted by HighLifeMan

Jonas Brodin
Patrick Berglund
Nicklas Backstrom
Jakob Silfverberg
Mika Zibanejad
Anze Kopitar
Patric Hornqvist
Marcus Johansson
Victor Hedmen
etc...

These players all jumped directly from the SEL and had an immediate impact on their respective franchises. The SEL does a great job at priming these young kids for NHL.

On your list, I'd add that Patrik Berglund didn't play a single game in Elitserien (SEL) before he crossed the Atlantic. He played for Västerås (Backlund's old club) in Hockeyallsvenskan which is the league below SEL.

Just like with players from other places there are going to be those that are more than ready to come over and compete in the NHL, while there are others who will need some more time.

[moon]

Originally Posted by The Swedish Flame

On your list, I'd add that Patrik Berglund didn't play a single game in Elitserien (SEL) before he crossed the Atlantic. He played for Västerås (Backlund's old club) in Hockeyallsvenskan which is the league below SEL.

Just like with players from other places there are going to be those that are more than ready to come over and compete in the NHL, while there are others who will need some more time.

Why are you adding a guy that is on the list?

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Believe he's noting that he never played in the SEL, not adding to your list

[moon]

Originally Posted by Hugh Jahrmes

Believe he's noting that he never played in the SEL, not adding to your list

Okay misread that. Makes sense now.