I think the thing that worries me most about Nichushkin is the deal where he either plays in the NHL or goes back to the KHL. Does this come from a sense of entitlement that he is only good enough for the NHL and is not willing to lower himself to playing in the AHL?
One could argue that he has shown that he wants to play in the NHL by getting released by his KHL club but has he shown real commitment with the get out clause. Is he really going to give 100% if he knows he has this out clause hanging over which ever team drafts him. How long does this out clause last for, is it one year or forever?
If this KHL clause didn't exist i would have no problem drafting him but with the clause in place I have my reservations, regardless of how good he is.
I don't think Barkov would come over to NA just to play in the minors, either. At least next season. That fact alone doesn't mean that there's a sense of entitlement. However, the money and the opportunity to play at home are a combination that will always make Russian players feel that the KHL is a strong option.
Next couple of seasons, I don't care where the prospects play so long as they develop and I'm not sure if Nichushkin is dramatically different than other top European prospects in this regard. The worry is more that a player might not accept a lesser role in NA even later on if he struggles to find his NHL game. Then you might have a situation where a player kind of always has one foot out the door.
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I think the thing that worries me most about Nichushkin is the deal where he either plays in the NHL or goes back to the KHL. Does this come from a sense of entitlement that he is only good enough for the NHL and is not willing to lower himself to playing in the AHL?
Sense of entitlement? I would love to see you turn down a multi-million dollar salary for one that is in the low 6 figures...
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Here we can see that Valeri Nichushkin got reasonably soft minutes compared to his KHL teammates, going against middling forwards and relatively weak defensemen. That doesn't mean he's not a good player, but it does suggest that similar production from someone facing tougher competition might be more impressive.
Of course, in men's leagues like the KHL and SHL, even the best 17-year-old won't usually be asked to face the opponents' top lines, so Nichushkin's usage might not be all that different from other KHL draft prospects.
You can see from this plot how an elite two-way player like Sean Monahan sees both the opponent's top line and their best defensemen:
In contrast, Max Domi sees significantly weaker opposing forwards, leaving the heavy lifting to teammates like Chris Tierney.
Last edited by sureLoss; 06-26-2013 at 08:49 AM.
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That is the other reason I am leaning towards Monahan. He was all they had so every shift he played against the best. With his circumstances, I don't think we have the complete picture of what he can be.
I think the thing that worries me most about Nichushkin is the deal where he either plays in the NHL or goes back to the KHL. Does this come from a sense of entitlement that he is only good enough for the NHL and is not willing to lower himself to playing in the AHL?
One could argue that he has shown that he wants to play in the NHL by getting released by his KHL club but has he shown real commitment with the get out clause. Is he really going to give 100% if he knows he has this out clause hanging over which ever team drafts him. How long does this out clause last for, is it one year or forever?
If this KHL clause didn't exist i would have no problem drafting him but with the clause in place I have my reservations, regardless of how good he is.
My understanding, and it could in inaccurate, is that he has an NHL out clause in his KHL contract. Meaning if he is playing in the NHL he doesn't have to play in the KHL. However, he doesn't have an AHL out clause.
Basically if he doesn't play in the NHL he is contractually obligated to play in the KHL.
Sense of entitlement? I would love to see you turn down a multi-million dollar salary for one that is in the low 6 figures...
So he is a flight risk because of money as well, my concern grows. The best he is going to get is an ELC, so if the KHL comes calling with a big contract and he goes you wouldn't be bothered because who would "turn down a million dollar salary for one that is in the low 6 figures"
I am watching the live chat on USA Today. Red Line Chief Scout says their are 5 top players. Jones, Drouin, and MacKinnon are in an upper echelon and would have went ahead of Yakupov. He says that Barkov and Nichushkin are similar caliber players. He says he knows of two teams that have Nichushkin as #2 overall player on the board.
So he is a flight risk because of money as well, my concern grows. The best he is going to get is an ELC, so if the KHL comes calling with a big contract and he goes you wouldn't be bothered because who would "turn down a million dollar salary for one that is in the low 6 figures"
All European born players have a similar flight risk. How many actually take the big KHL contract. More unsubstantiated fear-mongering. Most players want to play in the best league in the world. Plus the conditions in the NHL are much better. The KHL is no where near the threat some people make it out to be.
All European born players have a similar flight risk. How many actually take the big KHL contract. More unsubstantiated fear-mongering. Most players want to play in the best league in the world. Plus the conditions in the NHL are much better. The KHL is no where near the threat some people make it out to be.
I was actually looking at a complete list of Russian/ex-USSR NHL players going all the way back to Sergei Priakin, and there are actually more NHL players having longer careers in the NHL than there was back before the KHL.
Especially back in the 1990s, it looked like there was an even bigger flight risk:
All European born players have a similar flight risk. How many actually take the big KHL contract. More unsubstantiated fear-mongering. Most players want to play in the best league in the world. Plus the conditions in the NHL are much better. The KHL is no where near the threat some people make it out to be.
I dunno, I'd argue it's more of a threat for Russian players simply because they get to play at home. Despite what the misconceptions may be, Russia isn't a bad place to live, especially if you're from there I would imagine.
Think about it this way. If say it was the other way around, where the KHL was the best league in the world with world class star treatment, and the NHL was the what the KHL is like. Would you not think there'd be incentives for a Canadian kid to play here at home, especially if a team here is going to offer a salary many times higher than what you can get playing over in Russia?
I dunno, I'd argue it's more of a threat for Russian players simply because they get to play at home. Despite what the misconceptions may be, Russia isn't a bad place to live, especially if you're from there I would imagine.
Think about it this way. If say it was the other way around, where the KHL was the best league in the world with world class star treatment, and the NHL was the what the KHL is like. Would you not think there'd be incentives for a Canadian kid to play here at home, especially if a team here is going to offer a salary many times higher than what you can get playing over in Russia?
You are speaking hypothetically. We don't have to. We can speak in fact. And the fact is most NHL capable Russians are playing in the NHL. Especially Russians the caliber of Nichushkin.
Every time a Russian is available with a high pick the debate comes up. Yes he could return to the KHL. He could also end up as a bust, hold out, or he could end his career due to injury. The KHL risk is at the bottom of the pile.
Honestly, as a Flames fan, I'd rather not have to deal with the inevitable "will he or won't he go back to the KHL" debate that is sure to come up for years to come if the Flames draft him. You just know, the moment he slumps, there's going to be a ton of "I hope he's not unhappy here and bolts back to the KHL" threads crop up on CP. Remember the whole Tarachukin fiasco? I'd rather not go through that again, TBH.
Honestly, as a Flames fan, I'd rather not have to deal with the inevitable "will he or won't he go back to the KHL" debate that is sure to come up for years to come if the Flames draft him. You just know, the moment he slumps, there's going to be a ton of "I hope he's not unhappy here and bolts back to the KHL" threads crop up on CP. Remember the whole Tarachukin fiasco? I'd rather not go through that again, TBH.
I just want the best player available at the time we get to make our selection. Nichushkin is being talked about like he would be a first overall pick in most draft years. Monahan/Lindholm/Nurse are not that caliber of prospect.
It would be a shame to lose out on that level of prospect due to unfounded fears, optics, or because we don't want to deal with a couple of silly threads on Calgary Puck.
Fortunately I don't think the CP reaction is high on the Flames draft criteria.
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All European born players have a similar flight risk. How many actually take the big KHL contract. More unsubstantiated fear-mongering. Most players want to play in the best league in the world. Plus the conditions in the NHL are much better. The KHL is no where near the threat some people make it out to be.
It wasn't a case of 'unsubstantiated fear mongering' I was replying to the comment by ARK2 that it was okay for him to take the big dollars in the KHL rather than an ELC and playing in the AHL.
I agree that the Oilers are more likely (or at least desiring) to draft a C than a D (or trade the pick).
But 3 of the 5 had the Flames not taking a C (2 VNuts and a Nurse), which I think was just wishful thinking on heir part to leave the Cs for the Oilers.
Not sure what you are referring to as the panel had the Flames drafting centre Lindholm and the Oilers drafting defenseman Nurse.
__________________ "Half the general managers in the NHL would would trade their rosters for our roster right now ......... I think I know a little about winning ..." - Kevin Lowe; April 2013
I hope like heck that Nichushkin is gone before #6. Maybe he's a great talent, but he scares the bejesus out of me. This draft could potentially set up the Flames in a good way for the next 10-15 years, I'd rather them play it a bit more 'safe'. Barkov or Monahan and I'm a happy camper.
