Who did you vote for? - Official Election Results Thread

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Fair enough. I suppose most people who are "party" people (Liberal or Conservative) have their minds made up and are going to vote for their party regardless. The leader could be a barn animal rapist, and it wouldn't matter. You hear reasons like; "the other party has no solutions", but I would be willing to bet that most "party" people don't really know. They vote on loyalty.

Alberta though, seems to have an extreme number of "party" people, and it is almost all for just one party. Relatively speaking of course. Other provinces seem to have way more swing voters. I have actually voted for 4 different parties in my life (Liberals, PCs, Greens, and Mel Hurtig's old National Party). I lived in Alberta during the last provincial election and abstained.

I don't think it's loyalty. I think true "party people" vote the way they do because the party is in line with their personal beliefs.

If you believe in small government and don't give a rat's rear end about social programs - you aren't ever going to vote Liberals. Nothing to do with loyalty - it's just the Liberals will never be what that person wants.

But for most people its not that simple. Myself - I believe in small goverment, low taxes and letting the market operate relatively freely - but at the same time I believe helping the unfortunate, health care for all and supporting arts and culture.

So I vote for the Liberals when they present a plan that makes sense to me - responsible spending and the right type of social programs. But I don't vote for them when they don't have a plan I think makes sense and default to the tories because i don't want spending to be out of control.

I think I'm like many Albertans in that I've primarily supports the tories in this province, but I am frustrated by the fact that no one on the left has presented me with something that is even REMOTELY close to a tempting option.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by fotze

I thought someone said rural voters are represented more by a 2 to 1 basis.

Probably.

Plus we have a lot of seniors....a LOT of seniors...and they traditionally vote Conservative.

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Azure

How about we just look at Canadian Health Care System?

The government has a history of creating screwed up programs.

What about the UK? France? Italy? Sweden? Norway? And others?

The best universal health care has small private inroads, but by and large, is a publicly administered service.

My point is that you can have successful systems WITHOUT having a completely private model. I only need to look to the U.S. Health Care system, where the only thing 'universal' about it is the "pay up or die" mentality.

Health care systems are one thing; universal health care systems are another.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by Azure

Probably.

Plus we have a lot of seniors....a LOT of seniors...and they traditionally vote Conservative.

And seniors actually make the effort to get off their duff and vote. That can not be said about many at the opposite end of the spectrum. Yet it is that end that complains the most.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

What about the UK? France? Italy? Sweden? Norway? And others?

The best universal health care has small private inroads, but by and large, is a publicly administered service.

My point is that you can have successful systems WITHOUT having a completely private model. I only need to look to the U.S. Health Care system, where the only thing 'universal' about it is the "pay up or die" mentality.

Health care systems are one thing; universal health care systems are another.

Small private inroads? You might want to double check how many countries you listed above use only 'small' private inroads. I know the UK has almost a 50-50 system, where half the public work gets contracted to the private sector.

The best system is two-tier.

There is a reason so many people here in Canada leave our 'universal' system and go to the US to have operations done.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by redforever

And seniors actually make the effort to get off their duff and vote. That can not be said about many at the opposite end of the spectrum. Yet it is that end that complains the most.

Yeah no kidding.

The WRA made a bigger dent than the NDP in my riding.

Maybe next time the stupid NDP won't bother to run a candidate here.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by llama64

So... for all the people who went out and voted PC. Are you still angry at Stelmach for the royalty issue?

There is a lot of support for the PC's in Calgary it seems. Much more then anyone predicted (not that anyone actually seemed to vote).

Or does this victory give credence to his policies? I remember this board coming down on Ed pretty hard for "ruining" the oil patch. Now it seems like most people have forgotten that and reverted to voting along party lines again.

Personally, I wanted a functional government again. Yet another landslide majority does nothing but damage the chances at having a decent official opposition. Taft had better step down soon. He's a smart guy but one of the worst party leaders I've ever seen. Next to Dion of course.

The only saving grace is that Stelmach so far has been more "Tory" then Klein was.

So look at what the "alternatives" presented instead. The Liberals were going to decrease the royalty tax on gas a bit but compensate for that by raising royalty taxes on oil more. That gonna win them votes in Tory Calgary? Not in your dreams.

The NDP were gonna further raise royalty taxes on both gas and oil. That gonna win them votes in Tory Calgary? or anywhere in the oil patch?

In the end, while Calgarians in particular might have been miffed at Ed for not giving them more representation in his cabinet, they decided to tow the line because the alternatives were far worse. And no matter what you might say or think about him, Ed is one of the nice guys, quieter than Ralph of course by a long shot, but a nice guy who seems trustworthy. And that is why so many yet again chose to vote Conservative, they trust that they are best able and best suited to keep this province on course.

And another thing that blew it for the chances of either the NDP or the Liberals is the money that the Labor congress spent on those negative ads trying to discredit the Conservatives. Many who belonged to the unions were mighty tiffed that their union dues were spent on those ads, especially in light of the fact that they never got to vote on that decision. Yeah, the elected officials have the capacity to make those decisions but many belonging to the unions thought it unethical to spend such an amount of money on negative ads without some direct consultation from union membership. Don't forget that a lot of the labor force in Alberta is working on oil rigs and in the oil industry in some capacity. They don't want to lose their jobs anymore than the next man on the street.

[Tron_fdc]

What I don't understand is who comes up with party platforms. I mean seriously, who sits down and goes:

"OK guys, here's what we're going to do. We're going to come up with something that's appealing to the lesser majority of people, sprinkle in a few ideas that might sway a vote or 3, and hopefully we can, best case scenario, come in 5th".

I mean c'mon. When you're in an election aren't you in it to win it? Coming close 3rd for some of these parties just doesn't cut it in my books (Rhinos notwithstanding). Maybe do a little research, find out what appeals to the mass majorities, and base a platform on that. If it's close to the existing governing party who cares! Get a leader that is recognizable and a little more personable than a grapefruit and you might actually win something.

[Azure]

How long has it been since we've had a political thread this long?

[Slava]

I thought I'd come to the party late and congratulate Kent Hehr for his win in Calgary Buffalo last night. He ran an amazing campaign, and made the word "Liberal" work in the heart of oil country. We won polls in the riding that we never win; and won by larger margins than Sheldon Chumir or Gary Dickson ever did! It was exciting, and made all of the sacrifices worthwhile!! Kent will be a phenomenal MLA, and the constituents of Calgary Buffalo are lucky to have such accessible and effective representation.

In other parts it was horrific to say the least. Unless you voted PC your votes are unaccounted for and voices are really not heard. I will be drafting a bill to push for electoral reform, or at the very least a citizens panel on electoral reform. PC's get 54% of the vote and 86% of the seats...not democracy at all, no matter how you define it!

I have to comment on the Liberal Party of Alberta vs. the Federal Liberals as well. Suffice it to say that the Liberals are not as well received as we would like in Alberta...but changing the name is grasping at straws. Fact is if the campaign was run properly this discussion wouldn't be taking place. The provincial Liberal campaign should've switched from a theme of "Its Time" to something more like "We're Ready" once the electorate was mobilized towards change (which by my estimation was at about Day 2). With this new theme the focus would go from saying "We need an alternative" to saying "Choose us as the alternative". Basically the message I wanted to see here was "Put us in and we won't screw up a good thing". Fact is that while a large percentage believed that an alternative was needed, no party was able to capture that force and implement it effectively.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Slava

I have to comment on the Liberal Party of Alberta vs. the Federal Liberals as well. Suffice it to say that the Liberals are not as well received as we would like in Alberta...but changing the name is grasping at straws.

Is it though? Right now any connection, even a loose one, to the federal liberals is a negative in Alberta. They need to distance themselves from the federal party and the federal party's history - a name change is the best way to start.

[You Need a Thneed]

Originally Posted by Azure

Yeah no kidding.

The WRA made a bigger dent than the NDP in my riding.

Maybe next time the stupid NDP won't bother to run a candidate here.

The NDP finished 5th in most Calgary ridings, actually.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

Is it though? Right now any connection, even a loose one, to the federal liberals is a negative in Alberta. They need to distance themselves from the federal party and the federal party's history - a name change is the best way to start.

I know and that is a common thought even amongst Alberta Liberals. Truthfully though we have been distancing ourselves from the Feds for decades, and where has it gotten us? I am of the mind that we should actually stop pushing them away (if you can believe it!).

I totally believe that after the success in Buffalo last night that we can duplicate this in other ridings next time around. It was labour intensive, and we had to work incredibly hard...but the voter turnout actually increased as a result in that riding! (How many others is that the case in?).

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Small private inroads? You might want to double check how many countries you listed above use only 'small' private inroads. I know the UK has almost a 50-50 system, where half the public work gets contracted to the private sector.

Your ignorance on an issue never ceases to amaze me. The problem is not who does the work, its who pays for it. In universal systems the government acts as the insurer and is a single point of contact for administration and payment. In the United States, there are hundres of insurers and the doctors have to fight with each of them to get their money. This is where costs are out of control. Insurers continue the deny game because it saves them money, but increases the administration costs to physicians who have to fight for procedures.

The best system is two-tier.

No, the best system is one that gives access to those who need the treatment first. Money should NEVER come into the equation when someone's health is the issue.

There is a reason so many people here in Canada leave our 'universal' system and go to the US to have operations done.

Really? And how many is "so many" and where exactly are they going? The system down here is pretty well at grid lock and you do not have access to the system without great sums of money to pay for procedures up front. Considering it costs ~$10,000 a day to stay in a hospital, above and beyond the cost of surgeries (usually in the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands of dollars) there aren't that many people that can afford to come across the border and get the operations done down here. Jesus, the vast majority of the snowbirds down here do their six months, less a day, just so they retain access to Canadian insurance and health care. This stuff of people leaving Canada to get things done, especially in the United States, is bogus.

Since we're on the subject, what about all the Americans that cross the border for access to services that they can't afford in the United States? There is an entire class of people that have to look to Mexico, Belize and Costa Rica for medical procedures, because they can't get services in the United States, and because they are too expensive. The system here is broke for the vast majority of citizens and the level of service is continually getting worse and worse.

Here is a very good look at why the Canadian system is vastly superior to anything the United States has dreamed up. This was put together by an American, now living in Vancouver, and teaching at UBC.

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/...th-care-part-i

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/...ree-marketeers

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Slava

I know and that is a common thought even amongst Alberta Liberals. Truthfully though we have been distancing ourselves from the Feds for decades, and where has it gotten us?

To be blunt then - do a better job of it.

A lot of average Albertans associate the provincial and federal liberals together and many assume they are basically the same party.

The Alberta grits may have been trying to break that association, but it just hasn't happened. A dramatic step is required.

[redforever]

Flames in 07
First Line Centre



Join Date: Aug 2006
Exp:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by redforever
I think a lot of Canadians have had enough with "opportunistic" politicians.

In this context I'm not aware of any.

The opportunity was seeing a party without a strong candidate so he moved from boston and threw his hat in the ring.

And the Conservatives tried to spearhead Arthur Kent into politics in Calgary, and where did that get them? Like I said, I don't think the general electorate falls for that game plan.

[Azure]

To expand on my comment about European countries and the two-tier system....

In Sweden in the late 1980s under a contracting system, private suppliers were performing 25% of coronary bypass surgery. In France, under fee-for-service, private clinics handle surgery for digestive diseases and eye surgery, and fully one third of hospital stays are in private facilities, and in Norway private clinics specialize in open-heart surgery and hip surgery, among others. None of these countries spend a significantly higher proportion of their GDP on health than we do, none has a higher private expenditure share, and all have life expectancies at birth on the same order as ours. In Japan, where both male and female life expectancy at birth are the highest in the OECD countries, and where expenditure on health takes up a mere 7.4% of GDP, a very large proportion of hospitals are in fact small, private clinics with facilities for overnight stays, and 54% of beds are classified as investor-owned.

There are countries with full-scale private hospital systems running in parallel to their private systems - Australia and the UK are probably the best known. In the UK the private hospital system is well established, and is regularly used by the NHS to pick up the excess demand when public sector waiting lists get too long, just as Canadian governments use the US private health care sector to relieve queuing times in Canada, as the Ontario government, for example, has done recently with cancer care.

But hey....what do I know?

When the WHO rated health systems around the world, Canada ranked 14th in “overall system performance” among industrialized countries, 4th in terms of overall system attainment and 5th in terms of responsiveness. Virtually every country that the UN ranked higher than Canada allows people to gain access to health services through private payment, and many of them have as good or better population health indicators and spend more per capita on health care.

A Harvard study comparing the UN health care system rankings with the opinions of the population of each country, found that Canadians’ level of satisfaction with their system was 12th in the industrialized countries, again lagging a long list of countries with more formalized multi-tier access and a broader range of services covered by public insurance. The poor and the elderly in this country both ranked Canada lower, at 14th.

http://www.aims.ca/healthcare.asp?typeID=3&id=333

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

They weren't.

Those were funded by the Alberta Federation of Labour

Part of the problem then. I probably have the TV on for about 2-3 hrs per day on various channels (hockey mostly), or maybe running in the background or what not - and I don't recall seeing a single Liberal ad, but I do remember seeing Stemach and the no plan for AB ones.

Seriously, it isn't as if I live under a media rock - I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Taft to try to get something out to me that makes me recognize him.

Maybe try to switch it up and instead of advertising on pretty much only channels which already give you airtime (like global), during a newscast nonetheless, you should put some dollars into other channels. Get your name out there Taft.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Part of the problem then. I probably have the TV on for about 2-3 hrs per day on various channels (hockey mostly), or maybe running in the background or what not - and I don't recall seeing a single Liberal ad, but I do remember seeing Stemach and the no plan for AB ones.

Seriously, it isn't as if I live under a media rock - I don't think it is unreasonable to expect Taft to try to get something out to me that makes me recognize him.

Maybe try to switch it up and instead of advertising on pretty much only channels which already give you airtime (like global), during a newscast nonetheless, you should put some dollars into other channels. Get your name out there Taft.

Taft's main problem is he is a dull man. Hard to make something exciting out of dull.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

To be blunt then - do a better job of it.

A lot of average Albertans associate the provincial and federal liberals together and many assume they are basically the same party.

The Alberta grits may have been trying to break that association, but it just hasn't happened. A dramatic step is required.

I agree that the stigma is a tough one to break. I realise that we haven't done much of a job of separating the two entities and that a dramatic step could be required. But really if we could just not bother trying to create the separation and focus on proving that voting Liberal is really not as terrible as some people think than I think its a better use of our time.

Who knows. I'm not a card carrying member of any party....so maybe I'm just as guilty!