Arena negotiation discussion. UPD: Flames release their proposal

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I think its best to see what the Flames and King say at this press conference.

Until we can see and compare the two positions we don't know what the Flames position really is.

I think we all need to be patient and see what happens at 11:30.

See, but now the Mayor and King arent even negotiating with each other in the same room, they're using the media.

Historically 'Negotiating through the Media' doesnt tend to work out all that well.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by flambers

Absolutely the Flames owners would have predicted this move by the City.

City has no other play.... they can only disclose the negotiations.

Remember the Oilers also walked away from the Arena deal....

I have no doubt they expected the move by the city. I think they incorrectly predicted the public's reaction.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Bingo

To be honest I tend to move off center when the weighting gets out of much on any topic, always have.

When a real strong majority forms on one side of an issue with two sides I tend to take up the minority to some degree, for that I stand guilty.

But other than that I don't agree with you. I can't stand Nenshi, haven't for months. Started with the Uber thing and has progressed downhill ever since. I don't like King either, I think he was the worst choice to put as the face of this for an ownership group in Calgary.

I don't think the city should build an arena for the team, but I also think given many comparables the team is right to get some assistance. I don't really have a stance on where the middle ground leans.

So call me what you want, your disappointment is sort of baffling as I didn't know I had to meet people's requirements in this, but fill your boots.

Ok, but you're not just some poster and this isn't just some line matchup discussion. Discussion around an issue of this much importance really shouldn't have the owner of the site just in here playing devil's advocate because the teams aren't the same size.

As for the second, that's clear. It also clearly affects your stances in this and other threads. At least we have this plainly on the table.

[DomeFoam]

The City's arena plan reveal should be a new thread...

[Par]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I strongly oppose the phrasing of the "1/3 user ticket tax". That money is coming from the Flames, especially if the city want the flames to front the money. It doesn't matter if the flames use their own pocket money or future revenue money to cover that third: the flames are paying that third. The only reason to break out that third is if and only if the city is offering a loan of that third. Then the value of that loan would be the interest saved on that ~185MM.

Stop talking about the middle third. It doesn't exist.

That is very true and people don't get that.

[Flash Walken]

Any way you slice their language of not pursuing an arena in Calgary AT ALL, it doesn't leave them with an avenue of recourse without a significant amount of capitulation.

The flames reps didn't say done with xouncil or Nenshi, they said done altogether.

Hard to come back from that and still save face.

I believe that was a significant miscalculation on their part.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Listen, the Edmonton was an absolute disaster. Katz basically put up 50 million of his own capital for a 600 million project. That is absolutely ridiculous. if that deal is "fair" to you, then you and I have a very different definition of fair.

And if you have paid attention I have said that was not a fair deal. But it is a deal that unfortunately we have to consider in the conversation as a precedent has been set in the marketplace.

I have stated that there should be three equal components to this. On third from the City, one third from the Flames, and one third in the form of a ticket surcharge. City owns the building. Pretty straight forward and fair. But, depending on how you look at it, the Flames are actually paying two shares in the long run, which I still think is fair. Just like I think it is fair for the City to put up a one third stake in a building they own. My position is such a crazy one, I know.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

I strongly oppose the phrasing of the "1/3 user ticket tax". That money is coming from the Flames, especially if the city want the flames to front the money. It doesn't matter if the flames use their own pocket money or future revenue money to cover that third: the flames are paying that third. The only reason to break out that third is if and only if the city is offering a loan of that third. Then the value of that loan would be the interest saved on that ~185MM.

Stop talking about the middle third. It doesn't exist.

So as a season ticket holder, or a concert goer, I won't see a surcharge on my tickets? It won't exist?

Is there no room for nuance?

So when I pay a fare on the C-Train, that's just the "City paying for the LRT" because they operate the system and finance it?

[Manhattanboy]

Agree with Locke. It's unfortunate, but totally understandable, that the owners are so private. Having one of them at the mic would be perceived by the public as a show of goodwill, particularly in light of what is being asked of the public. Murray Edwards doesn't come across all that well, but the other owners do - they are soft spoken, articulate and reasonable.

[Cappy]

The Property taxes will likely cover the interest on the Muni Bonds. So, the City is basically giving the flames 180 million.

If my Calc's are correct (I'm not good at maths), 30 year Municipal Bond rates in Calgary are 2.79%

http://www.calgaryherald.com/busines...224/story.html

183m over 30 years at 2.79% is $153,170,992.00 in interest.

[JFK]

Originally Posted by Bingo

To be honest I tend to move off center when the weighting gets out of much on any topic, always have.

When a real strong majority forms on one side of an issue with two sides I tend to take up the minority to some degree, for that I stand guilty.

But other than that I don't agree with you. I can't stand Nenshi, haven't for months. Started with the Uber thing and has progressed downhill ever since. I don't like King either, I think he was the worst choice to put as the face of this for an ownership group in Calgary.

I don't think the city should build an arena for the team, but I also think given many comparables the team is right to get some assistance. I don't really have a stance on where the middle ground leans.

So call me what you want, your disappointment is sort of baffling as I didn't know I had to meet people's requirements in this, but fill your boots.

The problem stems from the fact you think you started at center on this issue, you haven't. Your blinding hatred of Mayor Nenshi has molded some fascinating biases. The false equivalence that because King and ownership have been terrible on this issue Nenshi and the city must be too is a start.

His Worship has been trying to fight for taxpayers and get a fair deal for the city. Damn him! Also megalomaniac he is not. Arrogant, full of himself, does that weird eyes closed when talking thing? yes. Obsessed with power? No

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'd be guessing, just as you are, but I don't agree.

Nenshi has pretty solid numbers, assuming you can turn one of these vanilla opponents into an upset in 6 weeks would be pretty naive.

I think they wanted the whole thing public to get it moving. Done

Okay, maybe they did, but then they're idiots! I believe Nenshi gave them a timeline a few months ago about negotiations and that if they didnt have something within that timeline then it would be put on hold until after the Election.

So the fact that it wasnt moving should not really come as much of a surprise to anyone and kickstarting it 6 weeks before an Election was a calculated move, but maybe not a good one.

[Incogneto]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Dave Dormer @Dave_Dormer
.@NHLFlames officials tell @CBCCalgary they watched the press conference by @nenshi and will provide a response later today.

Awesome. Negotiating in public now. I am sure this is where both parties REALLY wanted to be....

What a disgrace this MGMT has become....good lord.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by InCoGnEtO

Awesome. Negotiating in public now. I am sure this is where both parties REALLY wanted to be....

What a disgrace this MGMT has become....good lord.

I thought the exact same thing. Not good.

[tvp2003]

Nenshi waited until Friday to release details. King needs to fire back before the weekend

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

You're giving them far more credit than I am. But maybe you're right and KK has had MS Paint fired up since Tuesday and he's ready to wow us again like he did at the calgaryNEXT announcement.

You dont think CSEC has their own in house PR people and think King is responsible for the content of what is stated in his pressers?

Edwards and company, like them or hate them, are not amateurs at this stuff.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by InCoGnEtO

Awesome. Negotiating in public now. I am sure this is where both parties REALLY wanted to be....

What a disgrace this MGMT has become....good lord.

Is there a downside to this being transparent? The Flames are asking for public money, the public should have a right to know what's being asked and what of their money is being offered.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Agree with Locke. It's unfortunate, but totally understandable, that the owners are so private. Having one of them at the mic would be perceived by the public as a show of goodwill, particularly in light of what is being asked of the public. Murray Edwards doesn't come across all that well, but the other owners do - they are soft spoken, articulate and reasonable.

It gives the appearance that they aren't willing to be associated with the proposal personally.

If I am giving a presentation and I want weight behind it, I bring in the c suite just to sit in the room and not say anything.

Conversely, not having the c suite there listening to a presentation gives me information on the importance of that presentation.

Having the flames ownership there in the gallery at city hall for the CalgaryNext unveiling but nowhere to be seen since is something you don't need boardroom experience to understand.

[Otto-matic]

King will be probably 20 mins late to the 11:30 conference.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by nik-

Ok, but you're not just some poster and this isn't just some line matchup discussion. Discussion around an issue of this much importance really shouldn't have the owner of the site just in here playing devil's advocate because the teams aren't the same size.

As for the second, that's clear. It also clearly affects your stances in this and other threads. At least we have this plainly on the table.

You're just getting this now? I've said it for two years.

I think both men have egos the size of sputnik, it's a real problem in this negotiation. I think I've said that about 50 times in the last 18 months.

Can I assume you're ok with me thinking that about King, but not about Nenshi?

Can I get a copy of the site owner magna carter so I can make sure I don't step outside the lines again?

And you really can't define what affects my stance any more than I can label or paint anyone else. You can disagree with my stance, but you don't get to build a fence around it as you don't have all the information.

This is the like the pessimist calling the realist an optimist. Nobody gets to claim they know where the lines are.

I'd like to THINK (not know) that I sit somewhere in the middle on this because I don't like either men, and I do see some but not a lot of public money as a pretty fair landing spot given the sports comparables.

Hopefully that doesn't disappoint you again.