When was Gaudreau ever the top NHL prospect in the world? Never. He had to prove himself. The quality of a prospect is a combination of ceiling and likelyhood to reach that ceiling.
My point was you were saying prospects will be better simply because size matters. That is a load of b.s.
My point was you were saying prospects will be better simply because size matters. That is a load of b.s.
My point was Gaudreau was drafted 104 overall despite being the best player in his entire junior league, because " The same question marks about every sub-190lb / 6'0" player applie to him - translating his game to the big leagues. He has a high ceiling but his floor is the same as Jonathan Drouin. Size matters."
I just noticed that you said nothing about their qualities, you simply say that their stats "are nothing special".
Since you watched them, can you give your argument more substance and tell why their "ceilings" are lower than people think?
I'll admit I've ever seen them play a Finnish league game.
You have seen these two play more than anyone I'd bet. You have mentioned on several occasions you don't think Puljujarvi has elite offensive potential. You also mentioned neither being a cerebral player and Laines skating concerns.
I just think them going from not even a lock to go 2-3 this year to posters arguing they are among the best 5 prospects overall the from the last 3-5 drafts combined is preposterous.
Yes and their line was very impressive. It was a week tournament however and I'm not ready to put them on the same level as other elite prospects yet.
How come the older and more mature Strome and Marner didn't dominate this tournament? Laine and Puljujarvi outshone those two on the same stage AND are younger. That's why people take them over guys like Strome and Marner.
I think after the World Juniors its pretty hard to argue Strome and Marner are as good as Laine/Puljujarvi. Doesn't matter how long the tournament is, the most important thing is that Laine and Puljujarvi just dominated older players. Rare feat. They are being viewed as special because what they did was extremely special. They are likely in the NHL next year. Strome and Marner went back to juniors. I mean these guys aren't really comparable right now, I'd take the Finns hands down, no question.
Of course I don't see Strome/Marner as on the same page as Ekblad, Barkov, Jones, Bennett, Draisaitl, MacKinnon, etc.
Last edited by Flames Draft Watcher; 01-30-2016 at 05:38 PM.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Flames Draft Watcher For This Useful Post:
Drawing such strong conclusions from such a small sample size is absurd to me. Hodgson dominated the same tournament, although he was older.
Why assume these are conclusions drawn from just the small WJC sample? Laine/Puljujarvi were establishing themselves as ahead of Chychrun for 2-3 before the World Juniors ever started. And Chychrun himself is no chump, he's been compared to Ekblad in terms of draft-year maturity at his position.
What the World Juniors did however, was remind us that putting up pedestrian stats in a Mens league as a 17 year old, means little relative to your age-group peers who are playing against 15-19 year olds most nights. Talk numbers? Puljujarvi put up numbers in the World Juniors that bring back precedents of Jaromir Jagr and Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux. There are also factors in both their games that don't show up in the numbers. Remember Lawson Crouse last year's draft? Remember how he was a consensus top 10 pick, deservedly so, despite putting up stats that looked worse than Morgan Klimchuk's draft year and generally NOT projecting as a star? That's because he plays a style, and has the tools to do so, that dominant NHL teams like the 2011 Bruins, and the Kings and Ducks have employed to high levels of success. Everyone is always looking for a Nathan Horton. Except both Pulju/Laine are way, way more talented then those calibre of guys.
Hodgson, Granlund and Tatar? None of your examples have any common traits with the pair of Finns. None of those guys were top draft picks or projected to be. None of those guys had the ridiculous physical tools and skillsets that translate nearly 1:1 between leagues. The best comparable for either Finn is gonna be Barkov, who didn't have himself to be benchmarked against and was a wild card. Even then Barkov went ahead of Drouin and friends. Drouin put up Marner-type numbers too, and that on a Memorial Cup team.
I don't mean to turn this into a lazy big player vs small player Darryl Sutter vs Jay Feaster debate. Size isn't the only reason the Finns are good. But if you're going to keep pulling up guys who had good World Juniors, talk about guys that have some similarities in their projection.
Last edited by GranteedEV; 01-30-2016 at 08:06 PM.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to GranteedEV For This Useful Post:
I'll admit I've ever seen them play a Finnish league game.
You have seen these two play more than anyone I'd bet. You have mentioned on several occasions you don't think Puljujarvi has elite offensive potential. You also mentioned neither being a cerebral player and Laines skating concerns.
I just think them going from not even a lock to go 2-3 this year to posters arguing they are among the best 5 prospects overall the from the last 3-5 drafts combined is preposterous.
My reservations about Puljujärvi are in the context of him being compared to the other two top draft eligible prospects. He's a great prospect, I just put him behind Matthews and Laine. I think Laine is a star, I'm not sure Puljujärvi has that quality.
Lots of people disagree and there's a good argument to be made that with Gaudreau, Bennett and Monahan, Puljujärvi might be the player that would give the best chemistry. Laine is a sniper but the Flames already have young goal scorers.
Puljujärvi has been considered a top prospect for a long time. He didn't rise because of the tournament.
Laine was considered as good or better in Finland since the start of the season, it's just that news travels surprisingly slowly and people who made the rankings in NA apparently were not watching him. The tournament was more of a wake up for those observers. Watch the clips in the Finnish league after the tournament, his shot is a laser and he shows dominating puck possession in his best shifts - at age 17.
I don't recall what I've said about Laine's skating. Probably just that Puljujärvi is faster but Laine doesn't need to be fast to be effective. However for his size, he happens to be pretty fast as anyone can see. I don't see any downside to Laine at all. He has everything you could hope for in a big winger.
Not sure RW is his best position though. Seems like he mostly plays LW. Could be wrong, I don't normally make mental notes about these things.
Finally, you mention stats. You mention Mikael Granlund. There's a reason Granlund went 9th overall and guys like Barkov, Laine and Puljujärvi are top-3 prospects, regardless of how their stats compare. Stats aren't irrelevant but people scout based on player qualities, not raw numbers.
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Henry Fool For This Useful Post:
My reservations about Puljujärvi are in the context of him being compared to the other two top draft eligible prospects. He's a great prospect, I just put him behind Matthews and Laine. I think Laine is a star, I'm not sure Puljujärvi has that quality.
The absolutely most miserable case scenario for Puljujarvi would be a bigger, faster, stronger, Michael Frolik with a natural right shot. That would be if he busts. I could live with that on Bennett's wing.
Last edited by GranteedEV; 01-30-2016 at 09:04 PM.
The absolutely most miserable case scenario for Puljujarvi would be a bigger, faster, stronger, Michael Frolik with a natural right shot. That would be if he busts. I could live with that on Bennett's wing.
man getting puljajarvi or matthews would be so insane. the only needs for this team would be a goalie and LH top 4 dman to become a contender
The Following User Says Thank You to flamesforcup For This Useful Post:
The absolutely most miserable case scenario for Puljujarvi would be a bigger, faster, stronger, Michael Frolik with a natural right shot. That would be if he busts. I could live with that on Bennett's wing.
Yeah I think he's super safe. There's no way he's not an effective forward in the NHL. Like Hossa or someone like that. And his shot could be a lot more dangerous already next fall. I mean it's already heavy, it's accurate, I just have the feeling that I rarely see him getting shots of that quality off in game situations.
Puljujärvi scores with a clean wrister a few days ago:
Laine last night:
Laine makes grown men look like junior players:
Both are point per game since the tournament. There will be a lot of clips like these on youtube for the rest of the season for those who are interested.
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Henry Fool For This Useful Post:
man getting puljajarvi or matthews would be so insane. the only needs for this team would be a goalie and LH top 4 dman to become a contender
We could someday look back at the 2016 draft as the tipping point into legitimacy if we get into that top 3. Getting a second 1st rounder would be nice too, really hope we can turn Hudler into one. What looks best:
My point was Gaudreau was drafted 104 overall despite being the best player in his entire junior league, because " The same question marks about every sub-190lb / 6'0" player applie to him - translating his game to the big leagues. He has a high ceiling but his floor is the same as Jonathan Drouin. Size matters."
Shows you how good Marner's skill is then. Rated top 5 prospect everywhere despite his size. And he is 5'11''. Not that bad.
curious, do u think he will end up better than gaudreu?
I can't say that because Gaudreau is so damn good. We'll see. I'll be happy if he is. The size argument is silly though. You have elite talent and you can be a hell of a player. Is Max Domi going to be better because he's the same height but a little more doughy?
The Leafs drafted a massive guy in the first round a few years ago in Gauthier and I was very disappointed. He lacked skill.
