The Blue Jays Thread: 2008 Season

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by JayP

Pathetic. 6-0. Burnett is putting on a clinic.

I can only giggle hysterically and shake my head.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by JayP

Pathetic. 6-0. Burnett is putting on a clinic.

Pathetic. Changes have to be made now. Can't be embarrased by the BREWERS and ignore it.

[Machiavelli]

Bush and his 5.something ERA is no-hitting the Jays right now.

I hope that was a sufficient jinx.

[ooogabooga]

well at least bush lost his perfect game in the 6th

i think the team just isn't responding anymore, they should clean house, maybe with the exception of arnsberg, the pitching has still been top notch for a majority of the year

[Saint Troy]

The Jays are a laughing stock right now, any one catch J.P absolutely killing Adam Dunn on his segment on the fan 590 last night? Completely unprofessional.

Dunn's response: (site nsfw due to language)
http://drunkjaysfans.blogspot.com/2008/06/dunngate.html

[JayP]

Someone better be fired after this garbage.

How it even possible to be no-hit by a bad #5 starter through 8 innings?

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by fleury

Another reason he should have been dealt years back: his hard on for 3rd rate ex-A's players. Enough of that. Lastly, he can't handle controversy, and just gets rid of it ie: Thomas, Lilly, coaches. Every one of them scapegoats (although some were deserved). I hope they give this guy the boot in a humiliating way. Can't stand the bum.

Originally Posted by Saint Troy

The Jays are a laughing stock right now, any one catch J.P absolutely killing Adam Dunn on his segment on the fan 590 last night? Completely unprofessional.

Dunn's response: (site nsfw due to language)
http://drunkjaysfans.blogspot.com/2008/06/dunngate.html

Just as I post that, another controversy with JP begins. Hopefully Dunn sues the bum for slander. With just some basic law courses under my belt, comments from JP (a GM) carry significant effect on the perception of Dunn's work ethic and can easily cost him benjamins when he's a free agent. If he does sue him, good luck to JP in proving that he was telling the truth. Who's going to testify on JP's behalf? Clearcut defamation in my mind, and I'm sure Dunn's agent is preparing the case as we speak.

[SportsJunky]

I just don't think that getting rid of J.P. is enough to shake this team out of their doldrums. I think Gibbons needs to go as well. Soon.

[JayP]

What the fata.

6 run, 2 out rally in the top of the ninth and it's 8-7 now. Inglett with a grand slam.

[JayP]

Stairs clutches up and strikes out to end the game. He's been brutal with runners in scoring position this year.

[Machiavelli]

The game was still on?

I would have rather had a blow-out.

[ricoFlame]

J.P., WOW, what a moron. good lord, show some freaking tact.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

The game was still on?

I would have rather had a blow-out.

All that did was probably save Gibbons' and/or JP's job until the next brutal beatdown in a few days.

[ShaolinFlame]

Wow this situation is getting ugly.

I still don't get the "Adam Dunn will save the jays" talk going around.

I would love the see this exact situation with Darryl crapping on some player. I bet no one would question him. Unfortunately (for the Jays) Darryl >>>>>>>> JP.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Nearly every Jay is well below his career numbers. Here's an OPS comparison:

Player - 2008 OPS - Career OPS
Wells - .788 - .808
Rios - .696 - .780 (but a .850+ OPS minimum was expected as his breakout the past two years)
Rolen - .802 - .876
Hill - .685 - .748
Overbay - .754 - .810
Stairs - .744 - .843
Wilkerson - .690 - .798
Stewart - .631 - .790
Mench - .629 - .788
Scutaro - .679 - .700
Barajas - .821 - .705
Zaun - .784 - .734
Eckstein - .721 - .714

Bolded are the only two guys who are significantly above their career numbers. Italicized are the 8 guys significantly below their career numbers (which includes all of our core hitters except for Wells who is still below his career OPS).

And I'm sure all objective fans would be surprised by Rios, Hill, and Overbay's numbers. Stairs too probably, but you could easily make an argument that last year was an exception.

Based off of win shares, Rios has already probably cost the Jays between 3-4 wins with his bat (comparing his stats to Morneau's who are where Rios should be around). The Jays would be in an entirely different position if just one of their big hitters was actually earning their pay (and not even exceeding expectations).

For me Hill and Rios are still young enough that I am not sure that their numbers are all that surprising. I know many people have expected them to break out this year but it may just be that they are not the hitters people thought or not quite there yet.

All of the guys that are italized are really not that unexpected. I am not surprised that guys like Rolen, Stewart, Overbay, Stairs, Mench, Wilkerson are down from their normal numbers. They are older guys who have shown signs of decline prior to this season.

Rios certainly is the guy who seems to be struggling most but with a young guy like him I am not sure it is all that surprising.

It is a shock that not one guy other than Barajas seems to be having a better than average year but overall I think the signs that the team would struggle offensively were clearly there. The fact that they are not a good hitting team should not be a surprise to most people.

[JiriHrdina]

What did JP say?

[Caged Great]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

What did JP say?

Basically, he called into question Dunn's compete level, his work ethic and pretty much everything else that he could think of. It was totally unprofessional.

[Caged Great]

Here's the exact quote

"What do you know about Adam Dunn? Do you know that he doesn't really like the game? Do you know that he lacks passion for the game? You wouldn't like Adam Dunn if we signed him."

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

For me Hill and Rios are still young enough that I am not sure that their numbers are all that surprising. I know many people have expected them to break out this year but it may just be that they are not the hitters people thought or not quite there yet.

All of the guys that are italized are really not that unexpected. I am not surprised that guys like Rolen, Stewart, Overbay, Stairs, Mench, Wilkerson are down from their normal numbers. They are older guys who have shown signs of decline prior to this season.

Rios certainly is the guy who seems to be struggling most but with a young guy like him I am not sure it is all that surprising.

It is a shock that not one guy other than Barajas seems to be having a better than average year but overall I think the signs that the team would struggle offensively were clearly there. The fact that they are not a good hitting team should not be a surprise to most people.

Rios is 27 and in his 5th full MLB season. There's no excuse for not at least matching his numbers from last season (and most Blue Jay fans would expect him to exceed them as he is entering his prime).

Hill is 26 and in his 4th MLB season. Like Rios, at least the status quo must be expected from him. Neither of these guys are kids anymore.

I don't expect guys in their early 30's to have their numbers drop completely off the map. Wilkerson and Overbay are only 31 and Mench is 30 - age is not an excuse for poor production. Rolen is only 33. Stewart I can understand since he's been slipping for awhile, but even he's dropped from around a .725 OPS average the past 3 seasons (.711, .715, .739) to a .631. I find it hard to believe that his 34th birthday turned him from a below average hitter to a pathetic one.

You're acting like all these guys are 36+ and the only one who fits that mold in Stairs (who I mentioned in my original post).

I don't think anyone here is saying the Jays should be a good hitting team, but they should be in the middle of the pack. I mean, look at these HR projections compared to career averages:

Rios - 7 (14...but 20-25 had to be expected)
Overbay - 11 (16)
Wells - 20 (26)
Rolen - 11 (28)
Wilkerson - 8 (21)
Stairs - 20 (25)
Hill - 5 (10...but 12-15+ were expected)

Basically every guy on the team with any power is hitting 5+ HR below their career averages. Now for someone like Stairs and Wilkerson this is understandable, but the rest of them it's baffling. There's no way your entire core should be well under power expectations with not a single guy exceeding his.

EDIT: Here's the offensive stats for 2008: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...atting&group=9. Look through the rosters of the teams who join the Jays in the bottom 10 of the league and tell me if the Jays core of hitters belongs in the basement with these teams.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Rios is 27 and in his 5th full MLB season. There's no excuse for not at least matching his numbers from last season (and most Blue Jay fans would expect him to exceed them as he is entering his prime).

Hill is 26 and in his 4th MLB season. Like Rios, at least the status quo must be expected from him. Neither of these guys are kids anymore.

With Rios and Hill I should have said still young in their careers, and even by that I mean they haven't established themselves as top level hitters that you can rely on every year at this point. I think a lot of Jays fans and media wanted/expected them to keep progressing but I am not sure it is huge surprise that they are not as good as their top years.

I don't expect guys in their early 30's to have their numbers drop completely off the map. Wilkerson and Overbay are only 31 and Mench is 30 - age is not an excuse for poor production. Rolen is only 33. Stewart I can understand since he's been slipping for awhile, but even he's dropped from around a .725 OPS average the past 3 seasons (.711, .715, .739) to a .631. I find it hard to believe that his 34th birthday turned him from a below average hitter to a pathetic one.

You're acting like all these guys are 36+ and the only one who fits that mold in Stairs (who I mentioned in my original post).

I think that with many pro athletes real age can be a bit misleading. For guys who were already mediocre like Wilkerson and Mench 30+ is starting to get "old" for what they provide. Their stats do start to see a slide because they were marginal when in peak form. There was a reason that they were available mid-season.

Rolen is a guy that played at a young age and has had injury trouble. I am not surprised in the least that he is not putting up his "normal" numbers. His shoulder is not what it should be and is much "older" than 33.

Overbay has been declining as of late. It may not be due to age but considering what he has done the past few years these numbers shouldn't be surprising.

Perhaps with the above mentioned guys the surprise isn't that they are older and declining, because as you point out they aren't ancient. For me the lack of surprise is that they were never that great to start with so if they lose even just a little it will likely show up in a big way.

EDIT: Here's the offensive stats for 2008: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/...atting&group=9. Look through the rosters of the teams who join the Jays in the bottom 10 of the league and tell me if the Jays core of hitters belongs in the basement with these teams.

I am not sure they are any better looking in paper than either of the LA teams who are in the bottom ten of most hitting stats, also I am not sure they are any better than Colorado either who shows up in the bottom ten.

Not looking at all the teams in the MLB's roster I wouldn't be surprised if on paper the Jays finished somewhere around in the bottom 7-10.