The Deal With Geoff Ward

[Toonage]

And that makes sense. No revenue, paying a coach already, a new hire would wait until the off season. Save as much as you can.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Boomer said this morning that if Ward is fired, he is quite sure that Edwards/Huska would step in as head coach. The team would not bring someone from the outside in.

Haha, the never ending cycle of stupidity.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Wish I understood systems and coaching more than I do. All I know is I'm sick of watching the Flames break like water on rock trying to move the puck up ice.

Here's the biggest thing (in my opinion)

Systems are for your bottom 6 and your special teams. Your top scorers, you don't make them play a certain way, you tell them to get the puck and do their thing. McDavid doesn't get almost 2 points a game by playing a rigid system, we all know the infamous stories of guys like Lemieux and Sakic straight-up telling their coach to piss off and leave them alone. Or Iginla telling Conroy to stop dumping the damn puck in. You don't tame a wild mustang.

Rookie coaches have a habit of trying to overcoach. When it comes to these top players just motivate them, give them teammates that understand where they're gonna be, and let them go. Unless there's some glaring errors you want to address, just coach effort, but not style

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ I agree and it seems Calgary’s attempt to counter a clogged neutral zone if they choose to carry is to pick the strong side and flood it. They get closed on and nobody is giving the weak side support. But the coaches are asking for dump and chase. Which is tough when a lot of guys are not particularly fast or big. They are trying to find a simple solution to a (relatively) complex problem.

Reminds me of the time Brent said ‘we’re not the kind of team that’s going to score off the rush’

Coach is not smart enough for the challenges of his job. Upgrade time

The coaches are not asking for dump and chase. I wish they were. Insisting on carrying the puck across the blue line, like Ryan says they are doing, plays right into the hands of teams that clog the neutral zone. They carry into the coverage, then have to make a weak pass attempt, or they do end up dumping, but not with anyone on their team moving for the puck because that wasn’t the plan.

The Flames could dump and chase successfully with their personnel. You don’t have to be that big or fast, especially against a team that has all their players up high to clog. You just need guys willing to go to the corner and have a good stick. The Flames best lines have been either Lucic-Bennett-Dube or Lucic-Backlund-Mangiapane, and they do this. So there’s 5 guys that dump and chase successfully. Tkachuk and Lindholm have shown they can, and Johnny is actually quite good at puck retrieval when he asserts himself. I also believe Robinson, Ritchie, Nordstrom, Leivo and Froese can do it.

[GioforPM]

Watch Tampa - they dump and chase. And no, it’s not because they are overly speedy or big - they aren’t.

[Mull]

Fire Ward
Keep BT - but I am a BT fanboy
Bring in an outside coach.

Economics? Well they still want fans next year.

I wonder how much flames on-ice success correlates to season ticket sales. I assume there is some type of correlation, even if its a multi-year average with a slow reaction from ticket sales. I guess 1-3 years of bad play can be nearly immediately offset by one year of competitive play i.e. I assume fans come back much quicker than they leave?

I am sure the flames have this number, and the data would be publicly available.

Has anyone ran this comparison before?

[btimbit]

Dump and chase can work quite well, especially against a team that doesn't obstruct and interfere much because you can sprint through the neutral zone without getting held up. And no puck carrier to clog and pressure for a turnover like we see with Gaudreau and Bennett a lot when they try to carry it alone. Get the puck behind the defenders making them turn around and ruin their structured coverage.

Trouble with how Calgary does it lately is they forget the chase part. Don't play north-south hockey well at all. They're too slow and far behind the guy dumping it in coming through the neutral zone so they can't get the puck first or pressure the dman to turn it over. by the time the forecheck gets there the puck is already headed the other way

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Dump and chase can work quite well, especially against a team that doesn't obstruct and interfere much because you can sprint through the neutral zone without getting held up. And no puck carrier to clog and pressure for a turnover like we see with Gaudreau and Bennett a lot when they try to carry it alone. Get the puck behind the defenders making them turn around and ruin their structured coverage.

Trouble with how Calgary does it lately is they forget the chase part. Don't play north-south hockey well at all. They're too slow and far behind the guy dumping it in coming through the neutral zone so they can't get the puck first or pressure the dman to turn it over. by the time the forecheck gets there the puck is already headed the other way

They aren’t fast, but they’re fast enough to do it if that’s what they want to do. Their dump ins are a product of failed carry-ins, so no one on the line is ready or moving to the puck - it’s a broken play.

This team has the guys to harass defencemen, and the main weakness of a lot of the teams in the division is their defence (Vancouver, Winnipeg, Edmonton and, to a degree Toronto). They are clogging the zone to make up for it.

[kyuss275]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Boomer said this morning that if Ward is fired, he is quite sure that Edwards/Huska would step in as head coach. The team would not bring someone from the outside in.

Pretty much what I think would happen also. 2 week quarantine, to much of a condensed schedule to get meaningful practices to change system completely. By the time an outside coach came in it would be pretty much 1/2 way through season . Then add how long it would take to get the players up to snuff with 28 games remaining. Might as well wait to summer to see which coaches from other teams are let go , to give a better assortment of coaches for hire .

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Mull

Fire Ward
Keep BT - but I am a BT fanboy
Bring in an outside coach.

Economics? Well they still want fans next year.

I wonder how much flames on-ice success correlates to season ticket sales. I assume there is some type of correlation, even if its a multi-year average with a slow reaction from ticket sales. I guess 1-3 years of bad play can be nearly immediately offset by one year of competitive play i.e. I assume fans come back much quicker than they leave?

I am sure the flames have this number, and the data would be publicly available.

Has anyone ran this comparison before?

Toronto has been a joke for decades in the past and it never mattered financially.

Financially, making the POs is a big deal - added revenue and no salaries.

Here’s Calgary’s attendance: solid, with the only dip being late 90s when they were out of the POs consistently until Sutter came, so you could argue the 2004 success got them back up.

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attenda...h.php?tmi=5090

All you could say about the attendance numbers is that they were lower when Calgary didn’t make the POs and had a team that was generally not winning the majority of games. Having a medicine team that makes thePOs but doesn;t go far? No real effect.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

Pretty much what I think would happen also. 2 week quarantine, to much of a condensed schedule to get meaningful practices to change system completely. By the time an outside coach came in it would be pretty much 1/2 way through season . Then add how long it would take to get the players up to snuff with 28 games remaining. Might as well wait to summer to see which coaches from other teams are let go , to give a better assortment of coaches for hire .

I think this was pretty much the logic behind the statement.

And of course there's the argument that Treliving doesn't deserve to hire his 5th coach. It wouldn't make much sense to fire the coach now only to fire the GM a few months later. Treliving probably wouldn't be fired until the the end of the season.

[Mull]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Toronto has been a joke for decades in the past and it never mattered financially.

Financially, making the POs is a big deal - added revenue and no salaries.

Here’s Calgary’s attendance: solid, with the only dip being late 90s when they were out of the POs consistently until Sutter came, so you could argue the 2004 success got them back up.

https://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attenda...h.php?tmi=5090

All you could say about the attendance numbers is that they were lower when Calgary didn’t make the POs and had a team that was generally not winning the majority of games. Having a medicine team that makes thePOs but doesn;t go far? No real effect.

Didn't the Flames buy their own tickets to increase those numbers?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Boomer said this morning that if Ward is fired, he is quite sure that Edwards/Huska would step in as head coach. The team would not bring someone from the outside in.

Brad Trelving's fragile ego on display.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by New Era

Brad Trelving's fragile ego on display.

I don’t think that’s it, at least, not in this particular case. I just think logistically it’s really hard to bring in an outside guy. Especially one who thinks his options will be greater come the off season.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I don’t think that’s it, at least, not in this particular case. I just think logistically it’s really hard to bring in an outside guy. Especially one who thinks his options will be greater come the off season.

Everything points to Treliving's ego. You don't make the same mistake over and over again unless you are incredibly stupid or arrogant. Treliving isn't stupid. He just has to be the smartest guy in the room which is why he won't even talk to an experienced guy. Seriously, Trelving hasn't even reached out to the experienced guys that have been available. They all say that the Calgary Flames have not reached out to them. That is a guy not wanting to bring in someone that has the gravitas who could challenge him or question the job he was doing. There is no way in hell you continue to reach into the minor leagues when you have proven NHL coaches available, but Treliving has done it for seven multiple hires. You tell me what the issue could be here. And it is not like these coaches do not recognize that this is a game of musical chairs and when a seat is open you jump on it. Suggesting they will roll the dice until "next year" for a coaching gig is ridiculous.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by New Era

Everything points to Treliving's ego. You don't make the same mistake over and over again unless you are incredibly stupid or arrogant. Treliving isn't stupid. He just has to be the smartest guy in the room which is why he won't even talk to an experienced guy. Seriously, Trelving hasn't even reached out to the experienced guys that have been available. They all say that the Calgary Flames have not reached out to them. That is a guy not wanting to bring in someone that has the gravitas who could challenge him or question the job he was doing. There is no way in hell you continue to reach into the minor leagues when you have proven NHL coaches available, but Treliving has done it for seven multiple hires. You tell me what the issue could be here. And it is not like these coaches do not recognize that this is a game of musical chairs and when a seat is open you jump on it. Suggesting they will roll the dice until "next year" for a coaching gig is ridiculous.

First bolded is patently false. I know this for a fact.

And he didnt reach into the minor leagues for Ward...he was already standing behind the bench of the team with a lot of NHL coaching experience on his resume, a winning record after being promoted to HC, and a series win against the Jets.

Keeping Ward was niether a stretch to see happen nor unexpected among NHL circles particularly with what was happening in the world.

Now...is Ward the right guy for this team or even any team? Who knows? There just isnt enough data to make that determination yet so its hard to say definitively either way. I would suggest that giving him at least a season worth of games would be the bare minimum before making a decision how good or bad he is.

I do know that there are, literally, years of data on the main guys pulling that jersey over their heads every game, and that data suggests they are not good enough to do much of anything more than what they have accomplished...or not accomplished.

As always its a results oriented business and both the coaching staff and the players should be judged on such...but you best have enough results to make a determination. We definitely have that on one side of this debate but certainly not on the other.....in my opinion.

People think I'm a "Coaching apologist" which to me is pretty funny. Im not. Moreso, and especially with this club i think some continuity/stability is imperative after the events of last year.

I do know that coaching is a pretty fluid type of profession where, if in the right spot with the right group, guys all of a sudden look like the next coming of Scotty bowman only to disappear in short order.

Other guys look like they couldnt coach a hungry dog across a room with a slab of roast beef in their hands at first, but given time lots of those guys see what they are preaching/selling start to be bought into by the players and eventually things start to click.

Treliving has made mistakes and to me the single biggest is the construction of this roster and he can blame no one but himself for that. Im leaning more towards his time here (while pretty good) is becoming clearly not god enough.

[Heavy Jack]

I have to disagree on the take you have around coaches. Honesty at this point I’d rather have kept Hartley versus the coaching carousel the club has gone through. I have nothing against Ward as a person, he seems like a good dude and seems like he cares but he is clearly in a role that is over his head and that’s on Treliving. Just like Gulutzan was. Just like Peters was who in my opinion wasn’t properly vetted and should have been a concern when Carolina happily handed him over. Go out and get a proven guy already... whether that’s D. Sutter, Bruce Boudreau, Gerard Gallant... whether it was Peter Lavioulette when he was available... someone who has a proven history as a head coach to work with this roster other wise to me what a waste yet again of a roster that had so many good elements to it. Yet again we have the makings of a good team not get the look it’s due because of complacency. Like when we didn’t go out and add that elite Center to play with Iginla while we wasted year after year of his prime years. This franchise is so maddening... stop going half way all-in and take a freaking swing for just one time.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Boomer said this morning that if Ward is fired, he is quite sure that Edwards/Huska would step in as head coach. The team would not bring someone from the outside in.

Shouldn't be a surprise, in some ways this already happened.

Peters was fired, Ward was made head coach.

Doesn't sound like there was a robust interview process, just that we landed on Ward as the full time coach.

But he was only given a 2 year contract at a league low for a head coach $900k.

Kind of sounds like they already made the decision to not make a big change mid-pandemic and are just riding it out with the coaches they had in the interim and spending as little as possible on coaching while doing that.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ I agree and it seems Calgary’s attempt to counter a clogged neutral zone if they choose to carry is to pick the strong side and flood it. They get closed on and nobody is giving the weak side support. But the coaches are asking for dump and chase. Which is tough when a lot of guys are not particularly fast or big. They are trying to find a simple solution to a (relatively) complex problem.

Reminds me of the time Brent said ‘we’re not the kind of team that’s going to score off the rush’

Coach is not smart enough for the challenges of his job. Upgrade time

CGY are intelligent and creative (hockey iq). Gio said it - quick transition has to be used whenever it can. They want to and are capable of making very high level plays (puck movment). But teams are very good on counters - it's like a judo move they use your attack against you, they have outnumbered attack. They have to use the intelligent part of hockey iq. If those plays aren't there and they have to allow their team mates to read them. If guys don't know the dump is coming there is no retrieval. It looks disjointed, forced and slow.

I think that when they are at their best it looks like TOR does in that article. That weak side option is there for the breakout - they use the entire ice and they get very creative.

They also kill entries at BL and turn the puck up ice quickly off those pressure turnovers. This team has to go go go. Don't play loose but also don't just give up time and space in order to defend homeplate. Good opponents will use that time to find holes in coverage.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Boomer said this morning that if Ward is fired, he is quite sure that Edwards/Huska would step in as head coach. The team would not bring someone from the outside in.

Of course not. It's Edwards & Huska, co-coaches until Ward and Peters are off the books. At which piont they'll just extend Edwards & Huska because wow, we got TWO head coaches for under $1M per year! Look at us with our great deals!