World Junior Flames Prospect Thread

[Beerfest]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

I wouldn't go that far, do you know who Jack Campbell is?

Yes...and...
Campbell was a first round pick..Ortio was a 6th.

Ortio has been playing great this tourament.

[looooob]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

If he makes it, expect a Staios/Sarich career, nothing exceptional.

.

frankly that would be an excellent outcome for him, but of those guys have had solid NHL careers despite where they (particularly Staois) are at now

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

[...]

Joni Ortio is unlikely to have an NHL career. Too short, handles the puck like a grenade and gives up as much rebounds then Luongo does against Chicago.

[...]

Here's a simple, direct question: how many games have you seen Ortio play? Because you couldn't have possibly made that assessment based on the games Joni has played in the tournament.

And even if you were correct, rebounds and puck-handling aren't areas that are set in stone at 19. Joni's physical talent is as high as any goalie's in the tournament.

I agree with fotze: highly dubious.

[Johnny Rotten]

Originally Posted by looooob

frankly that would be an excellent outcome for him, but of those guys have had solid NHL careers despite where they (particularly Staois) are at now

Staois has played over 900 games in the NHL. Sarich is closing in on 800 games. It'd be great if Ramage could play that many games and have a career like these two guys.

[NotSureIfSerious]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

Staois has played over 900 games in the NHL. Sarich is closing in on 800 games. It'd be great if Ramage could play that many games and have a career like these two guys.

True. I never said that's a bad thing, a steal for a 4th round pick in fact.


I just don't get the top pairing defenseman comparisons that some have given him. If he makes the NHL (4-5 years away), he'll be a bottom pairing defenseman.

[NotSureIfSerious]

Originally Posted by Henry Fool

Here's a simple, direct question: how many games have you seen Ortio play? Because you couldn't have possibly made that assessment based on the games Joni has played in the tournament.

And even if you were correct, rebounds and puck-handling aren't areas that are set in stone at 19. Joni's physical talent is as high as any goalie's in the tournament.

I agree with fotze: highly dubious.

Scouting reports. Goalie prospects are hard to track anyways, Kipper came from no where, Niemi, Nabakov, Miller, etc. I wouldn't hold my breathe on him just yet, especially when there are better prospects. (Markstrom, Roy, Pickard, Lehner, Campbell)

[Henry Fool]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

Scouting reports. Goalie prospects are hard to track anyways, Kipper came from no where, Niemi, Nabakov, Miller, etc. I wouldn't hold my breathe on him just yet, especially when there are better prospects. (Markstrom, Roy, Pickard, Lehner, Campbell)

Yet you're the one making confident predictions here.

[gonzo29]

Where are these top pairing projections for Ramage? Haven't seen that personally.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

Scouting reports. Goalie prospects are hard to track anyways, Kipper came from no where, Niemi, Nabakov, Miller, etc. I wouldn't hold my breathe on him just yet, especially when there are better prospects. (Markstrom, Roy, Pickard, Lehner, Campbell)

If you've been watching this tournament you'd know that saying Roy is a better prospect is a highly, highly questionable statement. Ortio flat out looks the better prospect.

Kiprusoff didn't come from nowhere, the Sharks had several highly touted prospects and he was one of them. Same for Nabakov. Miller certainly didn't come from nowhere, he was considered one of the best goaltending prospects during his college/AHL days before he even made the NHL. Your statement that they came out of nowhere makes me think you didn't follow prospects very closely when those guys were still prospects.

You say goalie prospects are hard to track and then try and make a definitive statement that Roy is a better prospect than Ortio? Strange logic there especially given that Ortio is outplaying Roy in this tournament.

NotSureIfTrolling?

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

True. I never said that's a bad thing, a steal for a 4th round pick in fact.


I just don't get the top pairing defenseman comparisons that some have given him. If he makes the NHL (4-5 years away), he'll be a bottom pairing defenseman.

Yeah, if Ramage makes the NHL in 4-5 years, he will likely start out as a bottom pairing defenseman. Not much of a prediction on your part.

After that who knows?

He might develop into top 4, top 2 or he might continue to be a 5-6 defenseman. It's way too early to pidgeonhole a this particular prospect.

Jesus anyways, Giordano went undrafted for crying out loud. Now he's a top pairing defenseman, and I doubt many people saw that coming.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

He might develop into top 4, top 2 or he might continue to be a 5-6 defenseman. It's way too early to pidgeonhole a this particular prospect.

Way I see it if he does become a legit 5-6 defenseman then he`ll have turned out just fine (so long as he`s paid like one). Most 4th round draft picks don`t make the NHL for anything beyond a cup of coffee so I`d consider one becoming a career NHL'er (even if a bottom pairing one) to be a win.

[DropIt]

Originally Posted by NotSureIfSerious

Scouting reports. Goalie prospects are hard to track anyways, Kipper came from no where, Niemi, Nabakov, Miller, etc. I wouldn't hold my breathe on him just yet, especially when there are better prospects. (Markstrom, Roy, Pickard, Lehner, Campbell)

So, incredibly false.

Also, you realise your contradicting yourself in this sentence....twice.

Anyone could tear off a list of goalies who you have never heard of and goalies that have made a great career for themselves, who have played in this tournament. I dont see how you can be so confident in knowing which goalies will make it and which ones wont. Let alone predicting how their development will transpire from the tournement onward.

You sound like a D-rag

[Trojan97]

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

Staois has played over 900 games in the NHL. Sarich is closing in on 800 games. It'd be great if Ramage could play that many games and have a career like these two guys.

Good post.

Only 10 guys from the '96 draft have played more NHL games than Sarich. 14 from the '91 draft have played more than Staios.

Something tells me if Ramage is sitting around the top 10-15 in GP from his draft class at the end of his playing days, people will speak quite fondly of his career.

[kekkone]

My comments on Ortio and Erixon.

First thing about Ortio is to compare his performance to last year's WJC and a year has clearly made a big difference. Last year he had troubles adjusting to higher tempo and more straight forward game and he didn't get used to those things through whole tournament looking shaky and not maintaining his good technique. Coming into this year's WJC Ortio has secured a spot with Sm-Liiga team and having lot of succesful starts at pro level has done wonders to his confidence.

With goalies everything depends on confidence-level. I don't think there has been much improvement on Ortio's technique from last year because it was already a strength but with better self-confidence he was able to play up to his potential. He had good movement around crease, not only lateral but forward-backward movement too which allowed him to challenge shooters better than maybe any goalie in the tournament. Nice to see this because he has had issues staying too deep in net/going down too early which left room to shoot over his shoulders. Unlike last year now he maintained technique while moving and was rarely off balance which is important because in AHL/NHL puck movement is quicker and goalie's moves have to be smooth. He also had good composure and rebound control.

A key to Ortio's good tournament was Finland's defence who forced opponent's to shoot from outside best scoring areas and they cleared high percentage of loose pucks in front of the net. Playing behind good defence is important for Ortio. First, Ortio loses sight to puck quite easily. He doesn't have Kipper-like ability to keep eye-contact on puck but rather Ortio might get down to butterfly and freeze still which happened several times. I'd say that's combination of lack of instincts and being too "kind" (not willing to fight for room in front of net). Other relates to previous vision-issue: he has troubles finding loose pucks around net and fight for them. He relies too much on defence to win those battles. When he comes across the pond these kind of battles increase exponentially and Ortio needs to learn how track and catch loose pucks. Third issue is he might not read the play correctly and overplay a little bit. That's okey but sometimes it looks like he doesn't want to recover and rather gives up on play.

Another issue is mental side of game. It includes confidence and character(=willingness and ability to WIN). I already mentioned that Ortio's confidence has got better, lot better but I think he is too dependent on it. The best goalie's are best goalie's because they have strongest mental strength, they aren't dependent on confidence-level which could differ daily. They have strong characters which appears on ability to not only handle pressure but also raise their performances on another level when the stakes are high; playoffs, medal rounds. It can also be seen on things I mentioned to be Ortio's weaknesses: they don't want to lose sight to puck, they want to catch every loose puck around net and especially they never give up on play.

Unfortenately I don't see those things in Ortio... at least not yet. His development this season has been very encouraging and he could learn these things some day but I personally like to look at natural ability especially with these character things (of which I think are good ways to judge talent) and at this moment Ortio does not have those as strengths. For example the only weak goal he let in this tournament was in situation when he needed to handle big pressure and step up, a goal by Bjugstad in overtime in decisive game to get free pass to semifinals.

Previous three paragraphs might be too harsh and make too early judgements. I don't think weak mental side will prevent him to make NHL but it certainly reduces his potential if he doesn't improve mental strentgh (by mental coaching or simply maturing). But again, what the hell I know, I consider Luongo mentally not as strong as most goaltenders in the big league but still he is known to be one of the best goaltenders in the game and is a proven Olympic champion. We'll see what happens first in summer if Ortio get's entry-level deal or not and where the Flames want him to play next season. I hope in Finland because he is under quality coaching which has provably took him forward every year and he has chance to be starter in Elite league level.

Oops, I didn't expect to write a novel so I'll comment on Erixon when I have time.

[kirant]

One question about Ortio's "kindness": I've noticed that Kipper is pretty soft on the guys in front of him and rarely goes out of his way to tap them or even give them a little notice that he's behind. Instead, he just tries to work around it. How comparable is Ortio in this aspect to Kiprusoff?

[kekkone]

Originally Posted by kirant

One question about Ortio's "kindness": I've noticed that Kipper is pretty soft on the guys in front of him and rarely goes out of his way to tap them or even give them a little notice that he's behind. Instead, he just tries to work around it. How comparable is Ortio in this aspect to Kiprusoff?

Kipper finds room to see puck looking over screeners shoulders or side so he doesn't have to fight for room like some goalies do. Problem is, Ortio isn't good at either thing.

[STeeLy]

When I watched Russia vs. Finland live, there was so much room at the HSBC Arena that I managed to move around to sit behind Ortio for 2 of the 3 periods (we stayed in the first watching Shikin, then switched between 2nd and 3rd so I can watch Ortio for those 2 periods).

And Kekkone has definitely summed it up. The 2 goals that Russia scored to tie it were both goal mouth scrambles. Completely lost the puck in both situations and Russia managed to tie. Though I find him decent enough to look over/around players for those screened shots.

[Patrick]

So in other words Ortio should be perfect and play as if hes a seasoned elite vet goalie? WTF Its like me saying Fleury made the worst decision ever as a goalie possible in his WJ tourny and because of such, he should of never been though highly of nor ever considered to win a stanley cup.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Patrick

So in other words Ortio should be perfect and play as if hes a seasoned elite vet goalie? WTF Its like me saying Fleury made the worst decision ever as a goalie possible in his WJ tourny and because of such, he should of never been though highly of nor ever considered to win a stanley cup.

sorry man, i don't see where that has been stated anywhere in the above posts. the guy's basically said that Ortio has sound fundamentals and technique, but has elements of his game that need development for him to really take that next step....

Sounds promising to me, despite me typically being a pretty "glass half empty" type guy with our prospect pool.

[kekkone]

Originally Posted by bubbsy

sorry man, i don't see where that has been stated anywhere in the above posts. the guy's basically said that Ortio has sound fundamentals and technique, but has elements of his game that need development for him to really take that next step....

Sounds promising to me, despite me typically being a pretty "glass half empty" type guy with our prospect pool.

This. When I watch prospects the main thing is that I try not to judge them. I never say "Erixon will make NHL next year" or "Ortio will be bust" and IMO no one should. I rather want to get a realistic look on what are prospect X's strengths that make him a potential NHLer and what are the weaknesses he needs to work on to make NHL one day. Prospects are prospects because they are not in the NHL yet and on their road there it's easier to develop weaknesses than strengthen strengths. That's why I emphasize weaknesses. My write-ups might sound critical and I gotta admit they are but I prefer word constructive critisicm. Erixon write-up will be similarly critical and I hope you (Patrick) got an answer why.