Government on the brink?

[Resolute 14]

Personal opinion. My opposition of the Liberals is for far more than their corruption and fraud.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Apr 5 2005, 08:13 PM

He was the leader of a party that doesnt exist. The CPC is considerably farther to the left than the CA was.

Your opinion is fair enough, however Day was an excellent finance minister in Klein's government, so I can't say I have much problem with him as a cabinet minister. He's not leadership material, which the CA found out the hard way, but his religious views arent really relevent in in the foreign affairs post.

I gotta admit I am not exactly versed in his record as provincial finance minister, but I know he pulled at least one Liberal-style "let the people pay for it" stunt when he foolishly badmouthed that lawyer.

If he were to become the Foreign Affairs honcho then I think his religious beliefs would have an effect and every diplomat in the world would be thinking "we've got a real effing fool to deal with here so take this ninny for all he's worth".

Most Canadians don't take him seriously so I don't know why anyone else would. Even George down south and his shameless pandering to the creationist morons wouldn't put a dummy in a real position.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

The Liberal Government in Ottawa may change the colour of its ties, but it'll be the 'same' government after the next election regardless of who wins.

We've talked about this before. There is not home in Canada for small c conservatives, especially those who are fiscally conservative but not socially conservative (though I wonder how may fiscal conservatives are truly so - general statement, not directed at anyone here)

I used to blame the parties. Now I blame Canadians. Canadians are among the most intellectually lazy people on the planet, and this is the result. There's no other explanation. We have corrupt & wasteful governments because we want them. Or at least, we want to keep them as long as we get to keep everything else.

[4X4]

Really, how powerful is a party, if voters

a) turned out to vote

b) punished parties for corruption or not following up on promises


In a perfect world, the above ingredients are part of the election stew.



Also, I find it funny that canadian elections are becoming more & more americanized. All the rhetoric & mudslinging. I remember martin's broken record response during the debate claiming that Harper was going to spend taxpayers dollars on aircraft carriers. Harper clarified his armed forces strategy, and martin just repeated his stupid aircraft carrier crap.

Did he say what HE was going to do with the armed forces? No. Just that Harper was going to waste money on aircraft carriers.

I was thinking to myself "at least we'd have something to effing show for the money. Better than having a $250,000,000 report on nothing"

Reminds me of the american campaigns that have something like

"Geroge Nethercutt voted no on bill 444. Bill 444 has saved twenty gazillion lives since it was made law. Essentially, George Nethercutt would rather see those people DIE."
"Paid for by the John Smith campaign for governer"


Excuse me, did you say how you voted? Did you say what you are going to do if you win? Npoe, just that the other guy sucks, so vote for me.

[shoestring]

Ralph is running in Quebec and Mila is running Hull.
There's another winning ticket. Need a guy from the east I think.

Put water ahead of commerce and you win,Quebec has a lot of water.

My new sig;

shoestring inging it;
Part of the get rid of water wasters,polluters of same,uncyclers,unrecyclers and all sorts of such said people who don't understand that water is Vital.
Named: Water Is Vital you Stupid blank ing... . $.... ,I hope to prevent any sane politicians from finding this idea.

It's working! :angry:

[Claeren]

Originally posted by Bend it like Bourgeois@Apr 5 2005, 08:24 PM

I used to blame the parties. Now I blame Canadians. Canadians are among the most intellectually lazy people on the planet, and this is the result. There's no other explanation. We have corrupt & wasteful governments because we want them. Or at least, we want to keep them as long as we get to keep everything else.

The country recently ranked the best to do business in, the only country in the G8 to have a balanced budget this year, least year, and for 8(?) consecutive years, and a country with 4 strong federal parties/choices and many other provincial options is full of intellectually lazy people?

I don't know about that.... maybe the rest of the country is really smart?!

Maybe the liberals have provided enough of a fiscally responsible carrot (ironically) that people outside Alberta are not willing to give up their urban lifestyles (ie - pro-choice, pro-gay, pro-anything that does not involve the church/beliefs of a few deciding the lives of the many, again ironic) to overthrow that government despite allegations of corruption. Again, ironically, the Liberals excelling at selling the ONE area that the conservatives should be able to compete with them on, fiscal restraint....

Your saying it would be smarter for non-Albertans to hand over their social freedoms to a bunch of Alberta based politicians THEY see as set on the Americanization/Judification of everything they hold dear?

If anything they are being quite intelligent - using Alberta for its wealth while keeping their politically active fringe at bay....

*shrug*

Claeren.

[Hakan]

Originally posted by transplant99+Apr 5 2005, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (transplant99 @ Apr 5 2005, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hakan@Apr 5 2005, 10:06 PM
I'll vote for the NDP in spite of the Liberals. They deserve at least one chance at power.

Why?

They have fataed up EVERY single chance at proving they are anything but incompetant....period.

Why in the world..."do they deserve a chance"???

Hilarious. [/b][/quote]
Jeez, so much hate on the NDP. I was being glib. Point being that I'd never vote Liberal. I'd never vote conservative (no I don't think closer economic and military integration with the US is a good idea and I'm not down with bigotry). So why not give a vote to the NDP, it's not like there are any examples in Federal politics to tell me where they've screwed up as the government party because they've never been the government party. And I think it's pretty juvenille to believe all that Free Dominion crap that they'd just flush this country down the toilet bowl in 2 years time. Some new ideas past the Libs and Cons would help. That's all.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Claeren@Apr 5 2005, 07:05 PM
Stockwell Day was freely ELECTED by the party membership to be their LEADER.


That is more then just one person, that is THE person, a person who became THE person because he was knowingly elected by its party membership. A party membership that only seemed to realize his EXTREME right-wing religious/political/life views were (a) completely at odds with non-Alberta Canada's views, (b) actually quite odd and while able to stand up to scrutney from his fellow believers in Red Deer (and small town Alberta) were mocked for their simplicity/stupidity by anyone with half a brain and the desire to use it in proving the validity of their scepticism, and © would disqualify them from EVER running the country after they elected him. Something they still haven't fully grasped....



Claeren.

You have every right to not like Stockwell Day. That is your right. However, you haven't got a clue who he is and you have no right to destroy his character or attack his beliefs. I'm deeply angered, insulted and disgusted by what you just wrote about him, Red Deer and small town Alberta. You sir, are a bigot!

You have every right to think and believe what you like. Now have the decency to give people with differing opinions the right to think and believe what they want without attempting to assassinate their character.

You don't like Christians? Fine. They don't have to like you either.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Claeren@Apr 5 2005, 11:37 PM

The country recently ranked the best to do business in, the only country in the G8 to have a balanced budget this year, least year, and for 8(?) consecutive years,

That's a bit of a rub, ain't it?

I hack on the Liberals plenty, but geez it's a rather conservative thing they did by cutting spending and balancing the budget.

Between that and allowing private citizens live private lives they are doing what conservatives purport to do.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 5 2005, 08:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 5 2005, 08:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Snakeeye@Apr 5 2005, 08:13 PM

He was the leader of a party that doesnt exist.# The CPC is considerably farther to the left than the CA was.

Your opinion is fair enough, however Day was an excellent finance minister in Klein's government, so I can't say I have much problem with him as a cabinet minister.# He's not leadership material, which the CA found out the hard way, but his religious views arent really relevent in in the foreign affairs post.

I gotta admit I am not exactly versed in his record as provincial finance minister, but I know he pulled at least one Liberal-style "let the people pay for it" stunt when he foolishly badmouthed that lawyer.

If he were to become the Foreign Affairs honcho then I think his religious beliefs would have an effect and every diplomat in the world would be thinking "we've got a real effing fool to deal with here so take this ninny for all he's worth".

Most Canadians don't take him seriously so I don't know why anyone else would. Even George down south and his shameless pandering to the creationist morons wouldn't put a dummy in a real position. [/b][/quote]
You don't know a thing about his religious beliefs, do you?

He has far more respect in this country and in this world than you think. In spite of all the misinformation you insist on perpetuating.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 12:31 AM

You have every right to not like Stockwell Day. That is your right. However, you haven't got a clue who he is and you have no right to destroy his character or attack his beliefs. I'm deeply angered, insulted and disgusted by what you just wrote about him, Red Deer and small town Alberta. You sir, are a bigot!

You have every right to think and believe what you like. Now have the decency to give people with differing opinions the right to think and believe what they want without attempting to assassinate their character.

You don't like Christians? Fine. They don't have to like you either.

He is an elected official after all, so we do have a right to attack his beliefs. We also have a right to attack his character.

His beliefs are stupid. His character is flawed.

I guess the "character" thing is open to interpretation.

The "earth is 6000 years old" belief is not. That is stupid.

[Claeren]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Apr 5 2005, 11:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Apr 5 2005, 11:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 12:31 AM

You have every right to not like Stockwell Day. That is your right. However, you haven't got a clue who he is and you have no right to destroy his character or attack his beliefs. I'm deeply angered, insulted and disgusted by what you just wrote about him, Red Deer and small town Alberta. You sir, are a bigot!

You have every right to think and believe what you like. Now have the decency to give people with differing opinions the right to think and believe what they want without attempting to assassinate their character.

You don't like Christians? Fine. They don't have to like you either.

He is an elected official after all, so we do have a right to attack his beliefs. We also have a right to attack his character.

His beliefs are stupid. His character is flawed.

I guess the "character" thing is open to interpretation.

The "earth is 6000 years old" belief is not. That is stupid. [/b][/quote]



What was is it he said about Dinosaurs in regars to that 6000 year old earth thing? Something about how man is supreme under god because their footprints were even found with the dinosaurs in fossils or something?

Something plainly not true and totally ignorant regardless.....


As was said he was/is a public official and if we are going to talk about the party HE LEAD and people like him largely populate then it is an open ball game on his silly world view.

He is a small town redneck preacher who has small town red neck preacher views.

In his bubble of friends who don't ask any tough questions (seemingly like yourself Sammie) he is a safe, smart, and good guy i am sure, but the nation is a big place and in comparison to the bigger picture you better have had to answer tough questions in your past if you are going to convince anyone to follow you. Stockwell Day and his ilk are not tough question type people - they 'just believe' in their answers and that is enough for them. That is just not enough for the big city folk (statistically) who want the freedom to do what they want free from the influence of a vocal and well organized Alebrta based christian (nationally speaking) minority.

Nothing abnormal about that, but he, nor anyone like him, will be elected to run this country. I have nothing against christians or small town folk (why would i?) but most of the country lives in big cities and big cities are what now drive the world economy. To think you are going to win a national election on small town values (where big city pressures, diversities, and realities plainly do not exist) is silly and doomed to failure from the start.


Some broad generalizations there for the sake of simplicity but again that is how the typical non-Alberta viewer see's the most influential parts of the Conservative party today REGARDLESS of whether you think i am wrong...


Claeren.

[CaptainCrunch]

I have to give the liberals a lot of credit, they've done a great job with PR, they've made the Conservatives and any party that opposses them out to be this evil rednecked ultra right wing monster, while the Liberals have managed to clean out the cash register, and stolen the paintings from the wall.

Its brilliant, and it truly illustrates why the system dosen't work. There's one way accountabilty where the party in power has to really answer to no one, while the parties that strive to get there are attacked at will.

Its funny.

I strongly dislike the liberals and what they stand for. they've become smug and arrogant and criminal. I don't care about the gay marriage vote, or the legalization of dope, to be honest, things like that are trivial, and like abortion should be under the jurisdiction of the provinces.

I can't stand the fact that the Liberals are either corrupt or incompetant, and both should cost them the government.

But its unlikely because the Liberals will spin up the lies and untruths, and write a few checks and the election will be over before it hits the Manitoba border.

Kent Brockman from the Simpson's said it best. "The more I think about it, the more I realize that democracy dosen't work"

[Hakan]

It's not like the Liberals are just fabricating baseless lies about the Conservative party to fool Canadians into thinking that they are a bunch of red-necked yokels. The Conservatives are doing a pretty good job of doing that themselves and until they shed the Randy Whites and all the bigots from the party they will never form government. Blame the Liberals all the want but the Conservatives are responsible for the electoral position they are in and no one else.

The system has been around for 138 years. You'd think they would have learned to to play it instead of griping about it day in day out?

[Claeren]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Apr 6 2005, 12:53 AM
I have to give the liberals a lot of credit, they've done a great job with PR, they've made the Conservatives and any party that opposses them out to be this evil rednecked ultra right wing monster, while the Liberals have managed to clean out the cash register, and stolen the paintings from the wall.

Its brilliant, and it truly illustrates why the system dosen't work. There's one way accountabilty where the party in power has to really answer to no one, while the parties that strive to get there are attacked at will.

Its funny.

I strongly dislike the liberals and what they stand for. they've become smug and arrogant and criminal. I don't care about the gay marriage vote, or the legalization of dope, to be honest, things like that are trivial, and like abortion should be under the jurisdiction of the provinces.

I can't stand the fact that the Liberals are either corrupt or incompetant, and both should cost them the government.

But its unlikely because the Liberals will spin up the lies and untruths, and write a few checks and the election will be over before it hits the Manitoba border.

Kent Brockman from the Simpson's said it best. "The more I think about it, the more I realize that democracy dosen't work"

A little overkill. 200M over 8(?) years for the federal government is actually less of a loss relativily speaking then the millions lost when the Holy Cross hospital was sold for pennies on the dollar to Klein's good (American i believe) friends in the Health Care business (but remember privatization is good for the little guy!) or when his wife (And Chief of staff and his wife?) made millions on stock promoted by him questionably while abroad on tax payer paid 'business' or the billions made by power companies and saved by oil sands extractors (whose power intensive extraction techniques have been subsidized by artificially rising energy demand at peak to offset usage costs at non-peak) since evergy privatization, etc.


Corruption, greed, playing favorite's, padding friends pockets, etc are all pretty standard across the board, no need to self-rightously limit the accusations to Liberals only... not to mention buying vote's...

Claeren.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by Hakan@Apr 6 2005, 01:18 AM
It's not like the Liberals are just fabricating baseless lies about the Conservative party to fool Canadians into thinking that they are a bunch of red-necked yokels. The Conservatives are doing a pretty good job of doing that themselves and until they shed the Randy Whites and all the bigots from the party they will never form government. Blame the Liberals all the want but the Conservatives are responsible for the electoral position they are in and no one else.

The system has been around for 138 years. You'd think they would have learned to to play it instead of griping about it day in day out?

If bigotry is what keeps the Conservatives out of power, then how are the Liberals in power?

Chretien was openly bigoted against the west, but that doesnt matter because when it comes to elections, the west doesnt matter.

The government sent it's tax collectors out last election to silence churches that opposed the Liberals because of their stance on same-sex marriage. But, I suppose we dont care about freedom of speech or freedom of religion in this country.

ESPECIALLY if you are a part of the majority.

Hedy Fry accused Prince George of burning crosses.

The entire 2000 Election campaign was run in a platform of bigotry and racism by the Liberals. Notably comments from Elanor Caplan who accused the CA of being made up of "holocost deniers, prominent bigots and racists."

Of course, she didnt back her claims up in any way.

But it's alright.

In Canada, apparently being a bigot prevents you from getting elected if you are Conservative.

If you are a Liberal, it guarantees you get elected.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Claeren@Apr 6 2005, 09:16 AM

A little overkill. 200M over 8(?) years for the federal government is actually less of a loss relativily speaking then the millions lost when the Holy Cross hospital was sold for pennies on the dollar to Klein's good (American i believe) friends in the Health Care business (but remember privatization is good for the little guy!) or when his wife (And Chief of staff and his wife?) made millions on stock promoted by him questionably while abroad on tax payer paid 'business' or the billions made by power companies and saved by oil sands extractors (whose power intensive extraction techniques have been subsidized by artificially rising energy demand at peak to offset usage costs at non-peak) since evergy privatization, etc.


Corruption, greed, playing favorite's, padding friends pockets, etc are all pretty standard across the board, no need to self-rightously limit the accusations to Liberals only... not to mention buying vote's...

Claeren.

No kidding. Corruption is the end result of any government. The Convervatives don't exactly have a shining history of non-corrupt government. It seems like no one remembers Mulroney. The fact the Liberal party has dominated over the past 15 years is almost completely because of his government. Conservatives have no one else to blame.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Your saying it would be smarter for non-Albertans to hand over their social freedoms to a bunch of Alberta based politicians THEY see as set on the Americanization/Judification of everything they hold dear?

Not in the least. I'm saying that regardless of whether they wear a Liberal or PC pin on their lapel, the government we get next will be a virtual carbon copy of the government we have now. Because that's what Canadians want.

But, that statement is exactly my point point about Canadians being intellectually lazy. Anything different becomes either the 'Americanization' of Canada. As long as Canadians think we can look down our nose and think 'well, at least what we have is better than in the states' we're happy.

Health care is a classic example. We're the only country in the world (with anything resembling a modern health care system) that clings to this idea of universal, 'free' healthcare. But to change that is to be 'Americanized'. Why not Swedishized', 'Australianized', 'Britishized'. Nope. Change = Americanized, American = bad, therefore change = bad. So we don't even talk about it. Lazy.

The country recently ranked the best to do business in, the only country in the G8 to have a balanced budget this year, least year, and for 8(?) consecutive years, and a country with 4 strong federal parties/choices and many other provincial options is full of intellectually lazy people?

Another great example. There are a host of other 'rankings' where our competitive position is sinking like a stone. We have balanced budgets based on skyrocketing taxes, not fiscal prudence. And our absolute debt position is virtually unchanged. Personal debt continues to grow at alarming rates. In short, we're living on borrowed time. Once the next recession hits, we're sunk.

But we won't talk about that in Canada. Our standard of living will continue its gentle slide down while we celebrate some narrowly defined ranking as though it mattered. Our productivity gains will remain weak while we look southward and say 'gee, glad we're not them'. And politicians on both sides of the House will pander to that, because that's what Canadians want.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken@Apr 6 2005, 01:58 AM
Is there another option? I guess ideologically, but realistically, I'll vote Conservative as the lesser of three evils.

There isn't another option as long as people like you don't believe there is. If everybody who voted for Conservative or Liberals because they saw them as the lesser of X evils instead voted Green or something like that, we might actually see some change from these big parties or some real competition.

They've got you exactly where they want you, believing that you have to choose from the big 3. Don't forget that the party you vote for gets money because of your vote. It sends a message and it affects them financially.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally posted by Sammie@Apr 6 2005, 06:41 AM
You don't know a thing about his religious beliefs, do you?

He has far more respect in this country and in this world than you think. In spite of all the misinformation you insist on perpetuating.

How the heck would you know? Have you personally talked to everyone in the country? No, in fact like most people you probably associate mostly with people that have similar political idealogies, same class, backbround, lifestyle choice, religion, etc. There is a FAR greater disparity of opinion than most of us are exposed to.