Native Americans sue U.S. over solar power plant in desert

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I really doubt that the natives want to be integrated into society.

I think they enjoy the isolation and the free stuff.

The elders must pass on their hatred of whities to their young. It's actually quite pathetic....

Well to be fair, the last time we tried to integrate them, this happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_schools


So I can understand their skepticism.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

I really doubt that the natives want to be integrated into society.

I think they enjoy the isolation and the free stuff.

The elders must pass on their hatred of whities to their young. It's actually quite pathetic....

The elders want all the people living on the reservation screaming for more money, because the corrupt s on a lot of the reservations can steal more money from their people.

The government really needs to impose proper auditing on the reservations.

[theonlywhiteout]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Well to be fair, the last time we tried to integrate them, this happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_schools


So I can understand their skepticism.

When my grandparents came to Canada they spoke only Ukrainian. Not a lick of english. My Mom who was very young at the time was mercilessly made fun of for being different. Yet they all learned english and made a great life for themselves in this country.

You'll forgive me if I don't give 2 piles of moose poop about them being skeptical about integrating for fears of ... whatever.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

The elders want all the people living on the reservation screaming for more money, because the corrupt s on a lot of the reservations can steal more money from their people.

The government really needs to impose proper auditing on the reservations.

What a racist thought.

[theonlywhiteout]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

What a racist thought.

He might as well be doing the nazi salute and shave his movember mustache into a Hitler

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by frinkprof

I'm always a bit taken aback by the overt discrimination shown by members of otherwise mainstream message boards and other online communities (not just CP) toward North American natives as a particular race. A lot of the same level of commentary wouldn't be nearly as acceptable if it were directed at, say, Filipinos, African Americans or East Indians.

For some reason, on any topic dealing with Native Americans, mainstream message boards start to resemble Stormfront.

Just an observation.

Frink, I respect you a lot and your posts, so don't take this the wrong way, but in my opinion a lot of it is self-inflicted by many first nations people. This isn't mainly some "we saw it on TV and so we think it's this", but for many of us we've seen it first hand and I think it's fair to form an opinion of it based on that. To assume that some of these sarcastic posts are ignorant of the so-called truths of the situation would be incorrect, though I'm sure some might be.

I know of a lot of native people, since I was a kid. I lived beside a reserve. Our high school had a first nations area. I hung out there a lot with my friends. I went to their houses and saw the state of their families, their property, and the community around them. I watched my friends become alcoholics, drug addicts, or generally just fall apart. Only half of the first nations kids my age that I hung out with graduated from high school with me.

I still know regularly talk with a few of them. Only one family (I mean this in the sense of the whole family, not just one or two members of that family) of the many I know has pushed themselves into what they call in their words "normal society". They have a drive to be what many feel they can all do, if they didn't have the payouts and guarantees for their life because of their status.

One of my friend's family purposely doesn't search for higher paying jobs than the minimum because they get additional funding if they make below a certain with their first nations status, and are provided with a house at no charge. She has moved out and distanced herself from her family because their will to succeed in life and push themselves just doesn't exist when there is more incentive to sit on their duff and watch the cheques come in from multiple sources.

The scariest part is listening to them talk and admit they have a problem, that they don't like their situation. The assistance programs are there, the courses are available to them, but they either don't have the will to change the situation, or the family/community influence is too strong to make them move on. I wish there was some way to make them move forward and better fit in society without discrimination, but until there is a cultural shift in the first nations, people are going to look at them differently, and I don't see that changing.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Well to be fair, the last time we tried to integrate them, this happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residential_schools


So I can understand their skepticism.

The problem with this process was that the church was in charge. What were they thinking?

[Blaster86]

Ultimately the thing that will rub me the wrong way with Natives, at least in BC, is when they have no care or regard for their culture UNTIL it suits or benefits them. They don't respect it in schools, they openly mock it in fact.

The alternative school I attended had a special program set up for the Native students that had many special classes that were designed to teach them about the culture and history of the local tribes through BC, focusing on the lower mainland. It also let them get out of school early. I remember hearing a lot of the Native students openly mock it, and deride the teachers for teaching "stupid ****" and that the only good thing was that they got to leave early.

In grade 12 the school board ended the program due to lower native enrollment rates at the school, and guess who was up in arms? The same Native kids who would say they only liked it for the early leaving. Why were they up in arms? Because they felt it was an attack on them and that the school didn't want them to learn about their culture. Which was bull. They couldn't care less, they didn't respect it. They tried harder to be black than they did to be Native.

My niece, nephew are half native and my sister-in-law is full native, living in West Bank near Kelowna. They live on what would be called a dry reserve. All the houses are wonderfully cared for, no one looks like they've wasted their money and you know what the best thing is? They care about their ancestry. My sister-in-law teaches to full classrooms about their history and their past and the fight that Natives had to keep their gorgeous culture on Saturday and Sunday. On these kid's days off. My neice has been able to go all over the Province to perform traditional songs and dances at pow-wows. If they were up in arms over traditional land and the ilk, I'd probably believe it. When the tribes in North Van suddenly care about something 'traditional' you know all that matters to them is the money they didn't realize it was worth.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by theonlywhiteout

When my grandparents came to Canada they spoke only Ukrainian. Not a lick of english. My Mom who was very young at the time was mercilessly made fun of for being different. Yet they all learned english and made a great life for themselves in this country.

You'll forgive me if I don't give 2 piles of moose poop about them being skeptical about integrating for fears of ... whatever.

Were your parents, beaten, raped and abused?

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

The problem with this process was that the church was in charge. What were they thinking?

Yes, I completely agree, but the government was ultimately responsible.

Look, I'm hardly a native apologist, and I think that our current system is a lazy approach by our government, but residential schools were a debacle of monumental proportions and won't easily be forgotten when it happened just a generation ago.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Were your parents, beaten, raped and abused?

You do realize they might have been Jews fleeing the Nazis right? Or dodging Stalin?

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

My niece, nephew are half native and my sister-in-law is full native, living in West Bank near Kelowna. They live on what would be called a dry reserve. All the houses are wonderfully cared for, no one looks like they've wasted their money and you know what the best thing is? They care about their ancestry.

As a side note, the Westside First Nations Band is one of the most well-to-do Bands in Canada. They've been very successful, and for the most part, for the right reasons.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

You do realize they might have been Jews fleeing the Nazis right? Or dodging Stalin?

Yes, but then were they asked to go back and trust Hitler or Stalin?

EDIT: I wasn't trying to imply that the residential schools or the Canadian government are like hitler and stalin, but you are asking someone who you already "betrayed", at least in their eyes, to trust you again.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Yes, but then were they asked to go back and trust Hitler or Stalin?

EDIT: I wasn't trying to imply that the residential schools or the Canadian government are like hitler and stalin, but you are asking someone who you already "betrayed", at least in their eyes, to trust you again.

I see your point. However, I think that the government has done what it can to make amends. It would seem more fitting if that distrust was directed more at the Church over the schools than the government.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

This discussion always reminds me of the scene in Traffic with Topher Grace and Michael Douglas.

Robert Wakefield: I can't believe you brought my daughter to this place.

Seth Abrahams: Woah. Why don't you just back the eff up, man. "To this place"? What is that shiznat? Ok, right now, all over this great nation of ours, 'hundred thousand white people from the suburbs are cruisin' around downtown asking every black person they see "You got any drugs? You know where I can score some drugs?" *Think* about the effect that that has on the psyche of a black person, on their possibilities. I... God I guarantee you bring a hundred thousand black people into your neighborhood, into in' Indian Hills, and they're asking every white person they see "You got any drugs? You know where I can score some drugs?", within a *day* everyone would be selling. Your friends. Their kids. Here's why: it's an unbeatable market force man. It's a three-hundred percent markup value. You can go out on the street and make five-hundred dollars in two hours, come back and do whatever you want to do with the rest of your day and, I'm sorry, you're telling me that... you're telling me that white people would still be going to law school?

Michael Douglas' character responds with a resounding yes.

[EtchySketch9]

My god how much your minds must be blown when you see a successful, well-to-do Native person making an honest living and doing good for his/her people/community and believe or not there are a LOT out there (it must be so much to process that you simply can't comprehend it, even when it's staring at you right in the face). You're either too blind or ignorant to notice; instead you'd rather bitch about the same damn thing which only goes on to perpetuate your bigotry.

And it just amazes me how someone can share some story about their parents who fleed to Canada and then turn around and try to compare those "hardships" to the total colonization of an entire race of people who were minding their own business here long before everything was stolen from them. A lot of you seriously need to get educated; when you've experienced what it's like to have everything taken away from you maybe then you'll have an ounce of compassion. There is a such thing as compassion, is that something that just falls by the wayside these days? Some of the conversations (and assumptions) in this thread are really quite disgusting.

This is not just a "native issue" this is an issue for nearly every Indigenous culture that was colonized, Worldwide.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Originally Posted by EtchySketch9

My god how much your minds must be blown when you see a successful, well-to-do Native person making an honest living and doing good for his/her people/community and believe or not there are a LOT out there (it must be so much to process that you simply can't comprehend it, even when it's staring at you right in the face). You're either too blind or ignorant to notice; instead you'd rather bitch about the same damn thing which only goes on to perpetuate your bigotry.

And it just amazes me how someone can share some story about their parents who fleed to Canada and then turn around and try to compare those "hardships" to the total colonization of an entire race of people who were minding their own business here long before everything was stolen from them. A lot of you seriously need to get educated; when you've experienced what it's like to have everything taken away from you maybe then you'll have an ounce of compassion. There is a such thing as compassion, is that something that just falls by the wayside these days? Some of the conversations (and assumptions) in this thread are really quite disgusting.

This is not just a "native issue" this is an issue for nearly every Indigenous culture that was colonized, Worldwide.

Ditto.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by EtchySketch9

My god how much your minds must be blown when you see a successful, well-to-do Native person making an honest living and doing good for his/her people/community and believe or not there are a LOT out there. you're either too blind or ignorant to notice; instead you'd bitch about the same damn thing which only goes on to perpetuate your bigotry. It must be so much to process that you simply can't comprehend it.

I think we would prefer success for all natives, however the jist of the discussion in this thread is really about the fact that the government and the reservation system has created an environment of failure. Its not about being blind or ignorant, its just the fact that statistically natives in the reservation are living below the poverty lines in a lot of cases even though there's boat loads of cash flowing into that system every year.

Its basically being mismanaged at every level from government to tribal to the individual.

Originally Posted by EtchySketch9

it just amazes me how someone can share some story about their parents who fleed to Canada and then turn around and try to compare those "hardships" to the total colonization of an entire race of people who were minding their own business here long before everything was stolen from them. A lot of you seriously need to get educated; when you've experienced what it's like to have everything taken away from you maybe then you'll have an ounce of compassion. There is a such thing as compassion, is that something that just falls by the wayside these days? Some of the conversations (and assumptions) in this thread are really quite disgusting.

Back then the world was conquest and colonization driven, and yes the Natives were conquered, but so were the french in Quebec, but it can't be an excuse hundreds of years after the fact. While those natives were conquered and did have every thing taken from them, it shouldn't be effecting this generation, but the government and a fair share of natives allow it to happen.

Quebec was conquered, but they became a partner to an extent in Canadian society, the reservations must be eliminated because it creates a virtual fence or seperation that allows for a festering malaise, and while Canada continues to send money into this system as part of a long drawn out apology, its doing nothing to create self sufficiency.

And its a little unsettling that your saying that immigrations didn't have it so hard coming to Canada, a lot of these immigrants were refugees that literally came here with nothing. or people that risked it all to come to Canada with change in their pockets and worked for a better life.

Originally Posted by EtchySketch9

This is not just a "native issue" this is an issue for nearly every Indigenous culture that was colonized, Worldwide.

The true conquest of the natives happened a long time ago, the mistake was allowing the continued segregation of society and the Canadian belief that throwing money at a problem will make it dissapear.

There's also an acceptance in some of the poorer reservations that they're getting screwed over by their tribal councils and they're wasting the money thats coming to them on a individual basis.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by EtchySketch9

when you've experienced what it's like to have everything taken away from you maybe then you'll have an ounce of compassion.

This generation of Natives has never experienced this outside of what others of any race or creed has experienced in this world in the past twenty/thirty years.

Some are however totally experienced in getting hand outs for a culture and land that they know nothing and care nothing about except for the money they could be worth.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by EtchySketch9

My god how much your minds must be blown when you see a successful, well-to-do Native person making an honest living and doing good for his/her people/community and believe or not there are a LOT out there (it must be so much to process that you simply can't comprehend it, even when it's staring at you right in the face). You're either too blind or ignorant to notice; instead you'd rather bitch about the same damn thing which only goes on to perpetuate your bigotry.

And it just amazes me how someone can share some story about their parents who fleed to Canada and then turn around and try to compare those "hardships" to the total colonization of an entire race of people who were minding their own business here long before everything was stolen from them. A lot of you seriously need to get educated; when you've experienced what it's like to have everything taken away from you maybe then you'll have an ounce of compassion. There is a such thing as compassion, is that something that just falls by the wayside these days? Some of the conversations (and assumptions) in this thread are really quite disgusting.

This is not just a "native issue" this is an issue for nearly every Indigenous culture that was colonized, Worldwide.

I think this is the most ignorant post in the entire thread.

Maybe you should be educated on the history of colonization. People have been displaced, conquered and integrated literally thousands of times throughout human history. That doesn't always make it right but your level of ignorance is astounding to me.

The colonization of NA occurred half a friggin millenium ago. Get over it. I have no relation to any of the people that did the colonization. All I did was be born into this country and somehow I'm responsible for all the evils of a bunch of British and French settlers 500 years ago?

Don't get me wrong I have the fullest sympathy for the ills that occur on reserves. I don't think poverty is somehow genetic. Black ghetto's in the states are a result of social problems not race. Same with natives.

However, you have your head pretty far up your ass if you think that there aren't some serious problems plaguing native communities. What makes it worse is that our government is complicit because we continue to fund their poverty and encourage it. Far worse than that is that many native communities are complicit in the poverty and social problems.

Reserves or not, Natives need to stop getting handouts from the taxpayers. For one it is a waste of my tax dollars and two it is actually hurting them more than helping.

Like several others I grew up and saw first hand how bad the situation is with natives in this country. That doesnt mean I think every native is some sort of gas sniffing criminal as you so stupidly suggest. I do realize that there is a much larger proportion of natives that fit that description than the proportion of any other ethnic group.

You talk like we all enjoy the fact that we can look down on natives. What a naive and ignorant way to think. I think it would be great for natives and the rest of Canada if their poverty, suicide, alcoholism etc rates were on par with the rest of the country, but the sad truth is that they aren't.

To even suggest that it is somehow our fault is once again insanely ignorant on your part. Do natives have a heck of a hill to climb? yes. Are they stereotyped and discriminated against? hell yes. Does that excuse their behavior and abuse of government funds, including many native cultures abusing their own communities? absolutely not.