Prostitution laws struck down by Ont. court

[WilsonFourTwo]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i am all for making it legal - the only concern I would have is that all of those people working in that industry are somebodies child and would you want your child growing up aspiring to be a trade worker?

I wouldn't want them to grow up to be Porn Stars, Strippers and "Models" either. To be honest, this debate has nothing to do with prostitution....it has to do with common sense. Prostitutes have ALWAYS existed, and will clearly never go away. What we need to do is set our moral outrage aside and determine the best way to co-exist with it.

Let me challenge your perspective on this........think of your proposed scenario a little differently.

For one reason or another, your daughter has decided that selling her body is what's right for her. Would you rather she be forced to do it through a Craigslist Advertisement, or should she have the option to pursue it at a professionally level where she is safe(r) and in control?

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Have you guys seen what those girls charge at the moonlight bunny ranch. Its insane (Of course I only know about this because of what I've seen on T.V.)

It is cheaper to fly to Amsterdam and spend 200 Euro (which is a lot to spend) on a hooker, than it is two "party" with a bunny for an hour.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by 3 Justin 3

It is cheaper to fly to Amsterdam and spend 200 Euro (which is a lot to spend) on a hooker, than it is two "party" with a bunny for an hour.

When the amount of detailed info you've posted on how prostitution works in Amsterdam is coupled with the frequency of your posts on the subject, you're leading a lot of us to believe you have some serious first hand knowledge on the issue of red light district whores.

[VladtheImpaler]

Add a poll (anonymous if need be) to see how many people here have availed themselves of the services... would be interesting for perspective purposes...

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by fredr123

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/calgary/sto...g.html?ref=rss

Calgary Police Service say it's business as usual in Calgary and that they'll continue to enforce the prostitution laws as they currently exist in the Criminal Code. I trust the author of the article left out the part about the CPS refraining from laying charges under the relevant sections once the 30 day suspension is up on the declaration granted by the Ontario Courts.

The decision in the Ontario provincial court system is not automatically binding on the courts of other provincial jurisdictions so the provisions remain in effect unless a court in our province strikes it down, or a decision is made at the Supreme Court of Canada.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Add a poll (anonymous if need be) to see how many people here have availed themselves of the services... would be interesting for perspective purposes...

Does yo momma count?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Does yo momma count?

If yo momma charged you, she counts...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

Possibly increasing human trafficking....it's an interesting thought. Still, we see it already (twice in Calgary in the past few weeks) and I would argue that having 100% of the business behind closed doors feeds the problem instead of preventing it.

As for some of the other points being made on this topic......I'm not overly impressed with the logic. The one that really bothers me is the notion that we shouldn't legalize prostitution because some women will continue to work on the street anyways. In other words......since a change in the law would only benefit the lives of 90% of prostitutes, it shouldn't be enacted.

At the end of the day there is absolutely zero benefit to keeping the sex trade illegal, it is ENTIRELY negative.

That wasn't the point at all. I just don't see how legalizing pimping and brothels will help any hookers. It will, however, have the negative effect of increasing human trafficking. So it could possibly have a net negative effect.

In Amsterdam for instance, 75% of the prostitutes are non-dutch:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostit...he_Netherlands

Now take into consideration that Canada is neighbours with a much larger country that is unlikely ever to fully regulate/legalize prostitution. Canada then becomes a sex tourism destination for Americans that sex slaves are trafficked into.

The Netherlands since legalizing brothels has become the #1 destination for human trafficking:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6497799.stm

Not only that, the red light district has attracted massive amounts of organized crime. So much so that the Netherlands is now scaling back on brothel and "window" permits on a massive scale:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle5400641.ece

The truth is that every attempt at fully legalized prostitution has failed miserabely. It doesn't cure any of the problems in the industry, but instead creates many more.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

If yo momma charged you, she counts...

She told me she wanted three fitty, and I said three fitty thats a lot of money, then I looks at your momma and she looks an awful lot like the Loch Ness Monster in a dress, so I looked at your momma and I says what do you want, and she says I want three fitty,and I said you ain't worth three fitty and I left.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by WilsonFourTwo

For one reason or another, your daughter has decided that selling her body is what's right for her. Would you rather she be forced to do it through a Craigslist Advertisement, or should she have the option to pursue it at a professionally level where she is safe(r) and in control?

Do I still have to pay for university?

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by cal_guy

The decision in the Ontario provincial court system is not automatically binding on the courts of other provincial jurisdictions so the provisions remain in effect unless a court in our province strikes it down, or a decision is made at the Supreme Court of Canada.

You are right. Although it was a decision of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice (similar to our Court of Queen's Bench in Alberta) and not the Provincial Court, your point still stands. Anyone charged elsewhere in the country under one of those three sections struck down in Ontario just got some fantastic (non-binding) support for a similar Charter challenge.

[3 Justin 3]

Originally Posted by amorak

When the amount of detailed info you've posted on how prostitution works in Amsterdam is coupled with the frequency of your posts on the subject, you're leading a lot of us to believe you have some serious first hand knowledge on the issue of red light district whores.

Well I have to have expertise in some area.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by blankall

That wasn't the point at all. I just don't see how legalizing pimping and brothels will help any hookers. It will, however, have the negative effect of increasing human trafficking. So it could possibly have a net negative effect.

If prostitution is decriminalized, prostitutes have easier and more reliable access to the criminal justice system. It would be possible for them to bring complaints against violent pimps or johns without worrying about being prosecuted themselves for their involvement in the industry.

I agree that legalization will not prevent the most desperate from engaging in dangerous activities associated with prostitution, but for those who are not doing it out of desperation and have made a career out of the lifestyle, decriminalizing prostitution will make the industry much safer.

Human trafficking is an issue that has to be dealt with regardless of the legal status of prostitution. The point about Canada becoming a sex-tourism destination is a good one though, and it appears that an increase of human trafficking would result. I'm not sure how that can be dealt with, other than stricter measures and more attention put into preventing human trafficking.

The truth is that every attempt at fully legalized prostitution has failed miserabely. It doesn't cure any of the problems in the industry, but instead creates many more.

Every attempt at criminalizing prostitution has also failed miserably. I also think you are wrong to say that there will be no benefit to sex workers. The benefits would be obvious: Better health care (including mandatory testing), safer working conditions, employee rights, and a de-stigmatization of their profession.

[Calgaryborn]

So could someone be refused EI for not taking a job in a brothel? Or once a girl/guy worked in a brothel would they be refused a claim for EI if they quit?

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

So could someone be refused EI for not taking a job in a brothel? Or once a girl/guy worked in a brothel would they be refused a claim for EI if they quit?

I think prostitutes would be considered self-employed independent contractors. I don't think you can be denied EI benefits for refusing to start a business.

[amorak]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

So could someone be refused EI for not taking a job in a brothel? Or once a girl/guy worked in a brothel would they be refused a claim for EI if they quit?

wow...

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Savvy27

If prostitution is decriminalized, prostitutes have easier and more reliable access to the criminal justice system. It would be possible for them to bring complaints against violent pimps or johns without worrying about being prosecuted themselves for their involvement in the industry.

I agree that legalization will not prevent the most desperate from engaging in dangerous activities associated with prostitution, but for those who are not doing it out of desperation and have made a career out of the lifestyle, decriminalizing prostitution will make the industry much safer.

Human trafficking is an issue that has to be dealt with regardless of the legal status of prostitution. The point about Canada becoming a sex-tourism destination is a good one though, and it appears that an increase of human trafficking would result. I'm not sure how that can be dealt with, other than stricter measures and more attention put into preventing human trafficking.

I think the problem with your argument is that it relies on the idea that there are a large number of women who are:

1) willing to work with the system;
2) have willingly chosen to be prostitutes; and
3) are victimized to the extent they would benefit from a regulated prostition scheme.

I obviously have never done my own survey, but would propose that very few women fulfill all three of those requirements. As it stands now, women can legally work as prostitutes. These women have the right to health care and they have the right to report violence to the police.

The majority of prostitutes that do no report violence or do not have access to healthcare, I would argue, suffer from these ailments as the result of drug use/mental health/psychological damage and not prostitution.

In other words, for them, prostitution is merely a symptom of their real problem. Thus, they will remain on the streets doing desperate things regardless of whether prostitution is fully legalized or not.

Every attempt at criminalizing prostitution has also failed miserably. I also think you are wrong to say that there will be no benefit to sex workers. The benefits would be obvious: Better health care (including mandatory testing), safer working conditions, employee rights, and a de-stigmatization of their profession.

I would like to point out once again that noone is talking about criminilizign prostitution. The issue is pimps and brothels.

Also, there would never ever ever be a destigmatization of the industry. Porn is totally legal yet remains just as stigmatized. If you have sex for money, there will always be stigmas attached.

[Savvy27]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think the problem with your argument is that it relies on the idea that there are a large number of women who are:

1) willing to work with the system;
2) have willingly chosen to be prostitutes; and
3) are victimized to the extent they would benefit from a regulated prostition scheme.

I obviously have never done my own survey, but would propose that very few women fulfill all three of those requirements. As it stands now, women can legally work as prostitutes. These women have the right to health care and they have the right to report violence to the police.

It seems to me that you are off-base with your impressions here. I think you are over-stating the proportion of extremely desperate prostitutes and under-stating the abuse experienced by a typical prostitute.

Also, the phrase "willingly chose to be prostitutes" is vague. Are you talking about women who are desperate for income and without marketable skills that resort to selling their bodies, or do you mean women who are literally forced into prostitution by pimps? Not that it matters either way. If a prostitute is in a bad situation and is aware that there are regulated, safe working conditions, then they are put in a situation where they can choose to go work at a regulated service, rather than stay where they are.

It is unfair to put a condition on changing these laws that every prostitute has to take advantage of the change, or it's not worth doing it. This would be a positive change for working prostitutes and, if well-implemented, would lead to a better and safer work environment.

The majority of prostitutes that do no report violence or do not have access to healthcare, I would argue, suffer from these ailments as the result of drug use/mental health/psychological damage and not prostitution.

Are you saying that prostitutes are falling victim to violence because of drug use and mental health issues? Limiting this part to health care, I'm referring to things like employee health benefits that people working in other fields enjoy.

As for mental health issues, they are disconnected from prostitution (as you say) so they have nothing to do with this argument. And I'm not sure at all what you mean by psychological damage and what it has to do with reporting violence or health care.

In other words, for them, prostitution is merely a symptom of their real problem. Thus, they will remain on the streets doing desperate things regardless of whether prostitution is fully legalized or not.

On the other hand, it's also possible drug use might be a symptom of the harsh working and living conditions of prostitutes. If these conditions are improved, I think that there would be a marked decrease in drug use amongst prostitutes. Or, perhaps legalization will lead to a culture change in the prostitution industry and the numbers of drug users would go down.

I would like to point out once again that noone is talking about criminilizign prostitution. The issue is pimps and brothels.

The issue of prostitution is inseparable from the issues of pimps and brothels. It is a mystery to me how you can absolutely deny the benefits of regulation. You've written that you don't think regulation of brothels and pimps would benefit hookers at all. Then you disregard comments about health inspections, safe working environment, etc.

Pimps and brothels ARE being addressed through the decriminalization of prostitution related activities (soliciting and operating a bawdy house).

Also, there would never ever ever be a destigmatization of the industry. Porn is totally legal yet remains just as stigmatized. If you have sex for money, there will always be stigmas attached.

Even if the stigma remains, there are degrees of intensity. I would imagine that if prostitution becomes a regulated, professionally run industry, attitudes will change among many people as time goes by.

[3 Justin 3]

?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by blankall

I think the problem with your argument is that it relies on the idea that there are a large number of women who are:

1) willing to work with the system;
2) have willingly chosen to be prostitutes; and
3) are victimized to the extent they would benefit from a regulated prostition scheme.

I obviously have never done my own survey, but would propose that very few women fulfill all three of those requirements. As it stands now, women can legally work as prostitutes. These women have the right to health care and they have the right to report violence to the police.

The majority of prostitutes that do no report violence or do not have access to healthcare, I would argue, suffer from these ailments as the result of drug use/mental health/psychological damage and not prostitution.

In other words, for them, prostitution is merely a symptom of their real problem. Thus, they will remain on the streets doing desperate things regardless of whether prostitution is fully legalized or not.



I would like to point out once again that noone is talking about criminilizign prostitution. The issue is pimps and brothels.

Also, there would never ever ever be a destigmatization of the industry. Porn is totally legal yet remains just as stigmatized. If you have sex for money, there will always be stigmas attached.

You keep clinging to this as if prostiution is an enterprise that can currently be freely engaged in without legal ramifications. Either you actually think that, which would be stunning, or you are being willfully ignorant.