Illegal to beat up store thieves?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by pylon

What about these mortgage scammers? Do the banks have a right to strap them into iron maidens and have them drawn and quartered?

Banks have been looting mankind for so long, I can't help but crack a smile whenever they get ripped off....

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Banks have been looting mankind for so long, I can't help but crack a smile whenever they get ripped off....

I suppose you go the coffee tin in the closet and money under your mattress route?

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by valo403

I suppose you go the coffee tin in the closet and money under your mattress route?

Shut up............it's secret.

[ricosuave]

Originally Posted by pylon

I don't know, beating the tar out of what is likely some desperate junkie over a couple Porno mags and a grape crush seems a little excessive. How about get out and never come back, your banned from the premises. I have had customers try and pull fast ones on me when I am finalizing their car loans that could cost us literally THOUSANDS of dollars, not five or ten bucks. What should I do in that case? Pull a chainsaw out from under my desk and chop the customers head off? 10% of all losses come out of my pocket so they are stealing from me right? What about these mortgage scammers? Do the banks have a right to strap them into iron maidens and have them drawn and quartered?

A beat down for petty theft solves nothing, especially if the act was never violent. If it was a robbery, that's a little different, but nobody who isn't either desperate or mentally diseased in some way steals and risks jail for no other reason than to save 5 or 10 bucks.

um, what?

[hockeycop]

Can not beat the tar out of him. That is excessive and would be considered an assault.

For your friend to make a citizens arrest, he must witness an offence being comitted. For the offence of theft, he should have left the store, or at least crossed over the places where he would normally pay for merchandise.

Here is a general rundown of the Use of Force model that the RCMP and other Federal Agencies go by:

1) Cooperative Subject [listens to your commands] - Verbal direction, and handcuffing if appropriate.

2) Non-Cooperative Subject [doesn't cooperate, but doesnt physically resist - think dirty hippie protestor going limp] - Verbals + Soft Empty Hand Control [joint locks, pressure points, etc]

3) Resistant [actively pulling away from you, attempting escape] - Verbals + Soft + (low end) Hard Empty Hand Control + Intermediate Devices (OC Spray) [distraction knee strikes, impacting muscle tissues (charley horse), etc]

4) Combative [subject is now trying to engage you, not just get away] - Verbals + Soft + Hard Empty + Intermediates (OC+Taser) + Impact Weapons (Baton) - Now the fight is on, start throwing elbows, knees, using weapons, etc.

5) Death or Grievous Bodily Harm [Sub is trying to kill or severely injure you or someone else] - Verbals + Anything goes [Whatever you need to do, up to and including something likely to lead to the death of the subject]

You will notice that I included verbals on everything. Any force you use should be in conjunction with good verbal directions. Remember, you are NOT kicking his ass, you are using appropriate force to gain control over a subject who you intend to arrest.

Don't get in over your head. Small value property is NOT worth a trip to the hospital. Unless you are trained in how to properly stop these types of threats, then call police. Trust me, you do NOT want to have to deal with a Death or GBH level subject (police don't either, but they are prepared for it). You may think it would be cool, but it's not. The constant nightmares suck too.

[hockeycop]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Yes, the key is to prove his intent. If he picked up the object and intended to steal it then he could be charged with theft. He doesn't have to make it out the door. Although, you would have a better chance at proving the intent if he did leave the store.

You're mixing up 494 with 495. Only Peace Officer can use intent and interpretation (reasonable grounds, etc). To make a citizens arrest, and offence must be completed and witnessed by the person making the arrest.

[hockeycop]

I should also add to the Use of Force break down that you have to use the MINIMUM amount of force YOU believe is necessary. If you are a fit and healthy 6'00" male, and you are dealing with a spaghetti armed 13 year old gangsta wannabe who puts up his fists and takes a combative stance... Well you probably don't need to use the OC/Baton/Taser or even hard empty hand control, as you can probably control that subject by grabbing an arm and forcing him to the ground, getting in a good control position (half mount on subjects shoulder with arm elevated and controlled), and applying handcuffs (or taping him up).

On the other hand, if you are smaller and not as physically able and you're against 3 big guys who are surrounding you and you believe they have the ability, intent, and means to cause you some serious damage or kill you, then all bets are off and you can do what you've got to do.

[Huntingwhale]

[fredr123]

UPDATE: NOT GUILTY
http://www.torontosun.com/news/toron.../15877341.html

[mykalberta]

Every bag needs to be put in a head lock and punched a few times, preferably in the kidneys though to hide any visable injuries though IMO.

[PIMking]

GOOD!!! Chalk one up for the good guys!