Alberta government cuts number of medical students

[MJM]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Entry level nurses who choose to go full time make $56k a year. Is that really a lot? Plus if you're low on seniority, you work horrible hours. How would you like to work every major holiday for 2 or 3 years?

What world do you live in? 56k for an entry level position is likely the best pay you can get anywhere. I articled back in 2004. I was paid 30K a year.

Working Horrible hours? Welcome to the world of a professional. Most of us work 50-60 hours a week, without overtime, with the only payout for that effort being bonus, which more often is not, is not all it's cracked up to me. I got a 10K bonus on year, which sounds nice, but when you factor in the hours I worked, that was the equivalent of paying me 15 bucks an hour.

[mikey_the_redneck]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Entry level nurses who choose to go full time make $56k a year. Is that really a lot? Plus if you're low on seniority, you work horrible hours. How would you like to work every major holiday for 2 or 3 years?

Working holidays for 2 or 3 years is not the end of the world. Lots of people work holidays/weekends their entire lives....
I know a handful of nurses in my circle of family/friends, and they know they have a good gig overall. The one who delivers babies actually brags about how "slack" it is when there are no babies to deliver, but they still get paid to sit around and watch DVD's.....

[yads]

Originally Posted by Dang

I had no intention of being misleading. The article just says that the province is only funding 140 spaces, rather than the 190 they did last year. And I doubt this is just spin. If you read the article, the Dean is asking current medical students to write to the government to support the tuition increases. I think the situation has to be pretty serious for the Dean to ask students to support paying higher tuition.

I read the article. I guess I'm just under the impression that the government sets the universities overall budget and it's up to the university to allocate that budget. Can someone verify if the following is true or not:

The Alberta government tells the universities how to allocate their budget.

[Canada 02]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

That's still very tough to get. If you have ever looked at the dean's list (pretty short for the amount of students) and that's only a 3.5.

median 3.6 means half the class is below that; that pretty sucky! This is medical school not the faux disciplines.

sitting on the admissions committee, based on stats alone, you know who will most likely succeed, who will be placed

[MJM]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Working holidays for 2 or 3 years is not the end of the world. Lots of people work holidays/weekends their entire lives....
I know a handful of nurses in my circle of family/friends, and they know they have a good gig overall. The one who delivers babies actually brags about how "slack" it is when there are no babies to deliver, but they still get paid to sit around and watch DVD's.....

Actual quote from my friend's wife who is a nurse last weekend., who is a nurse who essentially hands the surgeon his medical tools and reads the screen for him

" I got called in to do a surgery last weekend, and the surgeon didn't show up on time. I didn't care, he could take all day if he wanted, I was getting paid double-time to sit there and chat until he arrived"

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by yads

I read the article. I guess I'm just under the impression that the government sets the universities overall budget and it's up to the university to allocate that budget. Can someone verify if the following is true or not:

The Alberta government tells the universities how to allocate their budget.

I've sat on a University BOG and Senate - the gov't just sets the overall numbers, and the university decides how to allocate it.
This is just "don't blame us, blame the gov't" PR stuff from the schools.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by MJM

What world do you live in? 56k for an entry level position is likely the best pay you can get anywhere. I articled back in 2004. I was paid 30K a year.

Working Horrible hours? Welcome to the world of a professional. Most of us work 50-60 hours a week, without overtime, with the only payout for that effort being bonus, which more often is not, is not all it's cracked up to me. I got a 10K bonus on year, which sounds nice, but when you factor in the hours I worked, that was the equivalent of paying me 15 bucks an hour.

Not in this day and age. $56k is only slightly above average. You'e qouting figures that are 6 years old. Everything has gone up. Mortgages, rent, even groceries and a bowl of pho. In 2004, how hard was it to get a $600 mortgage?

I still think those are horrible hours. And looks to me like you work horrible hours too (only you don't get the benefits of extra pay). Sorry to hear you only make $15/hr when said and done, but most professionals do not put in 50-60 hours a week. I've worked in 3 industries (film, oil and gas, and mobile technologies), and I've rarely encountered a situation where professionals are constantly working 50-60 hours a week, maybe 1 or 2 months in a row, but rarely ever a constant. Also, at least you don't have to work Christmas or new years day. Sure, they get paid overtime for that (is it just regular hours? I have no idea), but I would rather NOT work those days or earn that extra money.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by MJM

Actual quote from my friend's wife who is a nurse last weekend., who is a nurse who essentially hands the surgeon his medical tools and reads the screen for him

" I got called in to do a surgery last weekend, and the surgeon didn't show up on time. I didn't care, he could take all day if he wanted, I was getting paid double-time to sit there and chat until he arrived"

Funny how you and I have completely different experiences from our nursing friends. I have about a dozen nursing friends as well, spanning from senior 10 year nurses, to entry level. Most of these nurses obviously don't mind the overtime, but hearing the stress of looking after patients, and not screwing up is enough to convince me they have a hard job. I constantly hear from them about nurses who screw up and guess what? The patient dies. I don't know about you, but that plays into my mind if I knew I had that sort of responsibility.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Entry level nurses who choose to go full time make $56k a year. Is that really a lot? Plus if you're low on seniority, you work horrible hours. How would you like to work every major holiday for 2 or 3 years?

Oh cry me an effing river there, sunshine. Its called earning the respect of your employers and peers and proving yourself as a reliable medical professional.

Crappy hours for a measly 2-3 years and working holidays. Cry me an effing river.

[DrJ]

As an applicant this cycle for both schools, I can just hope for the best. (And secretly think of my own FFFUUUUU panel to post.)

Interesting analysis Vlad - do you mean that the gov't sets overall numbers for the university and the university allocates seats as it sees fit? For example (with small numbers for ease of explanation), U of A gets 1000 spots that are funded by the gov't. This year, instead of 850 Arts and Science students, they will increase the spots to 900 and accept only 100 medical students, versus the 150 the prior year?

Or is it the scenario where the gov't will only fund a certain amount of students and the schools or students are responsible for coming up for the extra coin that is no longer there?

Some of my friends who are at U of C med and U of A med have mentioned that the government wants to keep the average class size closer to 150 and since current class sizes are 180, next years class of approximately 130 brings that average number a lot closer. Lots of politics at play.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Not in this day and age. $56k is only slightly above average. You'e qouting figures that are 6 years old. Everything has gone up. Mortgages, rent, even groceries and a bowl of pho. In 2004, how hard was it to get a $600 mortgage?

I agree. If I'm hiring a university grad with a similar level of education to a nurse, I'm probably going to end up paying well over 50k these days. If you look at the APEGGA stats for engineers (who are another profession with a somewhat comparable level of education), a 'level A' (starting) engineer has an average salary of over $65,000, and the lower 10th percentile is about $56,000 (i.e. 90% of level A engineers make over $56,000). They wouldn't get the same pension etc. as a nurse, but on the other hand long-term earning potential is a lot higher and they generally wouldn't have to work holidays, weekends or evenings, so it all evens out. So I don't think 56k is an unreasonable starting wage for a nurse.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Oh cry me an effing river there, sunshine. Its called earning the respect of your employers and peers and proving yourself as a reliable medical professional.

Crappy hours for a measly 2-3 years and working holidays. Cry me an effing river.

Uh? Where did I say they shouldn't have to earn their seniority? Point it out, please. I said this is what they had to go through, which demands more than other jobs. I didn't say this is unfair and that they shouldn't earn their place. Maybe you should learn to read before you tell me to "cry you a river."

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Working holidays for 2 or 3 years is not the end of the world. Lots of people work holidays/weekends their entire lives....
I know a handful of nurses in my circle of family/friends, and they know they have a good gig overall. The one who delivers babies actually brags about how "slack" it is when there are no babies to deliver, but they still get paid to sit around and watch DVD's.....

Alright, i agree with you. Some nurses do have it easy. Maybe the solution here is to pay the nurses according to which ward they work in. half of my nursing friends work in trauma or something equally scary. I can't do their job. I can't clean a guy who's constantly oozing s*** out of his ass, or a woman who'd throw sharp utensils at you cause she's got mental issues.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Uh? Where did I say they shouldn't have to earn their seniority? Point it out, please. I said this is what they had to go through, which demands more than other jobs. I didn't say this is unfair and that they shouldn't earn their place. Maybe you should learn to read before you tell me to "cry you a river."

Do you realize that the only difference between a medical professional or any other is they deal with human lives? Sorry to sound inhumane, but at a certain point the general public become barcodes, products, to be managed like any other business. My roomates girl is EMS and makes jokes about having to pick up pieces of people who are still alive after they get smashed to pieces in car wrecks or nailed by trains or whatever the case may be. A graduate from school (an EMT)makes $24/hr and is not guarenteed full-time work. They go to school much longer and more intensively than a nurse and their pool of applicants is much smaller. Who really needs to be around so much death in life and death situations anyway? Oh yeah, and they get paid s***.

They chose to be in nursing. Comparing them to a musician, at least they get a real wage! And eventually don't have to work crappy hours! Then there is pension, and benefits. You listen to music everyday I bet, and I'm willing to bet whatever the hell it is the person went through a hell of a lot more than 2-3 years of bad hours (most likely with two jobs) and I guarentee they worked every single last holiday. And got paid s***.

What about soliders? They make a hell of a lot less for years before they earn the same as a nurse and I think we can all agree they go through something a hell of a lot harder than nursing school. Now, not everyone is actually intelligent enough to be a nurse I will acknowledge, but the actual pool of applicants is most certainly adequate. While there is a role for everyone in the forces one cannot just expect to be made of what it takes to live that highly unique and dangerous lifestyle. It requires years of intense training and the whole idea comes down to your life is to be given in defence of some morons back home bitching about having to work holidays.

I can go on and on but I digress. Insert-reasonable-example-of-occupation-here.

Rack it. I'm out.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Not in this day and age. $56k is only slightly above average. You'e qouting figures that are 6 years old. Everything has gone up. Mortgages, rent, even groceries and a bowl of pho. In 2004, how hard was it to get a $600 mortgage?

I still think those are horrible hours. And looks to me like you work horrible hours too (only you don't get the benefits of extra pay). Sorry to hear you only make $15/hr when said and done, but most professionals do not put in 50-60 hours a week. I've worked in 3 industries (film, oil and gas, and mobile technologies), and I've rarely encountered a situation where professionals are constantly working 50-60 hours a week, maybe 1 or 2 months in a row, but rarely ever a constant. Also, at least you don't have to work Christmas or new years day. Sure, they get paid overtime for that (is it just regular hours? I have no idea), but I would rather NOT work those days or earn that extra money.

I suppose lawyers will be working extra hours, with a lot of overtime involved.

I think it all depends on what you're doing. If you own your own small business chances are you can work 12 hours per day and take a long weekend off. Or if you're in the middle of a project and want to get something done you put in more hours too. I've often worked after 6 in the evening just to get something done.

Course, most people can't stand that. Quitting at 5 is a bit strange to me actually. I always work at least until 6.

Its really what you're used too. The modern work day is 9-5, which comes out to about 40 hours per week. Some people get all stressed out from that. Others have no problem with working 60-80 hours per week.

And if you have to work extra hours for 2-3 years to establish yourself, thats not such a big deal.

[MJM]

Originally Posted by TheyCallMeBruce

Not in this day and age. $56k is only slightly above average. You'e qouting figures that are 6 years old. Everything has gone up. Mortgages, rent, even groceries and a bowl of pho. In 2004, how hard was it to get a $600 mortgage?

I still think those are horrible hours. And looks to me like you work horrible hours too (only you don't get the benefits of extra pay). Sorry to hear you only make $15/hr when said and done, but most professionals do not put in 50-60 hours a week. I've worked in 3 industries (film, oil and gas, and mobile technologies), and I've rarely encountered a situation where professionals are constantly working 50-60 hours a week, maybe 1 or 2 months in a row, but rarely ever a constant. Also, at least you don't have to work Christmas or new years day. Sure, they get paid overtime for that (is it just regular hours? I have no idea), but I would rather NOT work those days or earn that extra money.

There's no professional in todday's day and age that starts at 8 and leaves at 4. I don't work 50-60 hours a week, 12 months a year, I work them I'd say maybe 4-5 months per year, and than it's normal. I have it light to compared to some of my colleagues at other firms.It's not $15 per hour pay either (it's a high-paying job), It was just my bonus that worked out to that when you consider I got a 10K bonus and when you work out the overtime hours I worked, the bonus portion of my compensation was essentially working for 25 bucks an hour ($15 was typo) so I have hard time feeling bad for nurses working overtime at 80 bucks an hour who are considerably less educated than me.

You're out to lunch on your opening salary though. I work for a large firm, who is consistently ranked in Canada's Top Employers. Our starting salary for university recruits last year was roughly 42K. This was the higest in Canada (amongst our firm which would have to be comparable given our rankings in the workplace studies), and was even down 3K from the previous year.

Thje only professional job I know of that starts higher than that out of university is engineering. However, they get more to start, but their incremental jumps are nowhere near as large as other professional industries. BY about year 3 CA's/Lawyers/Engineers are all relatively at the same salary number (lawyers/CA's start lower but increase faster, engineers starts higher but decrease slower).

We hired 1 out of every 10 kids we interviewed last year. It's not an employees market anymore.

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

http://alis.alberta.ca/occinfo/Conte...RO_ID=71002748




That's not very much for amount of schooling that they go through... but as Vlad said earlier they get other benefits others don't get. So that's a pretty good salary, but it's not like they're making a tremendous amount of money.

I have no problem with the base pay...its the overtime abuse that is the issue.

And I don't fault the nurses, that is the system that was set up, but it needs to be addressed.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Do you realize that the only difference between a medical professional or any other is they deal with human lives? Sorry to sound inhumane, but at a certain point the general public become barcodes, products, to be managed like any other business. My roomates girl is EMS and makes jokes about having to pick up pieces of people who are still alive after they get smashed to pieces in car wrecks or nailed by trains or whatever the case may be. A graduate from school (an EMT)makes $24/hr and is not guarenteed full-time work. They go to school much longer and more intensively than a nurse and their pool of applicants is much smaller. Who really needs to be around so much death in life and death situations anyway? Oh yeah, and they get paid s***.

Isn't that a huge difference? Human lives? Would you still say the same if your parent was lying on a hospital bed, and the person your parent will most frequently see is the nurse looking after them? Would you not rather they do their job to the utmost of their ability, to ensure they do not miss a single instruction on the care of your parent? I would, and therefore, I believe their job is unique and there are literally only a fist full of careers very much like theirs.
Well, since a good friend of mine is EMT, yes he doesn't get paid as well as nurses. I also support his cause for more hires and increase in pay. As a second year EMT, he works the same shift as nurse, transport the same sick and injured nurses have to look after, and speaks the same medical language as the nurses do. So I agree his line of work needs more government support.

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

They chose to be in nursing. Comparing them to a musician, at least they get a real wage! And eventually don't have to work crappy hours! Then there is pension, and benefits. You listen to music everyday I bet, and I'm willing to bet whatever the hell it is the person went through a hell of a lot more than 2-3 years of bad hours (prolly with two jobs) and I guarentee they worked every single last holiday. And got paid s***.

I agree, this is the profession they chose. I can't agree with the fact that if you don't deal with human lives, and you work every holiday, you're at the same situation as a nurse. If a walmart greeter doesn't greet you, no one cares. If a nurse forgets dosages or gives the wrong ones, well...

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

What about soliders? They make a hell of a lot less for years before they earn the same as a nurse and I think we can all agree they go through something a hell of a lot harder than nursing school. Now, not everyone is actually intelligent enough to be a nurse I will acknowledge, but the actual pool of applicants is most certainly adequate. While there is a role for everyone in the forces one cannot just expect to be made of what it takes to live that highly unique and dangerous lifestyle. It requires years of intense training and the whole idea comes down to your life is to be given in defence of some morons back home bitching about having to work holidays.

These views are a little too simplistic. Obviously Soldiers are underpaid and train very hard for their profession, and I don't deny soldiers have to do horrible things...but every profession you listed (with the exception of EMS) is uniquely tied into the care of human life. A soldier isn't in constant wartime mode. A nurse is (in a sense). He/She has to look after the sick and injured to ensure what the Doctor has dictated be followed through with no mistakes.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by DrJ

As an applicant this cycle for both schools, I can just hope for the best. (And secretly think of my own FFFUUUUU panel to post.)

Interesting analysis Vlad - do you mean that the gov't sets overall numbers for the university and the university allocates seats as it sees fit? For example (with small numbers for ease of explanation), U of A gets 1000 spots that are funded by the gov't. This year, instead of 850 Arts and Science students, they will increase the spots to 900 and accept only 100 medical students, versus the 150 the prior year?

Or is it the scenario where the gov't will only fund a certain amount of students and the schools or students are responsible for coming up for the extra coin that is no longer there?

Some of my friends who are at U of C med and U of A med have mentioned that the government wants to keep the average class size closer to 150 and since current class sizes are 180, next years class of approximately 130 brings that average number a lot closer. Lots of politics at play.

As far as I recall the university gets a flat rate per student up to a certain maximum. From the university's standpoint, liberal arts students are the best because they are the cheapest to educate. Now, it's been a long time, so my information may be wrong due to changes or to a poor memory.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally Posted by MJM

There's no professional in todday's day and age that starts at 8 and leaves at 4. I don't work 50-60 hours a week, 12 months a year, I work them I'd say maybe 4-5 months per year, and than it's normal. I have it light to compared to some of my colleagues at other firms.It's not $15 per hour pay either (it's a high-paying job), It was just my bonus that worked out to that when you consider I got a 10K bonus and when you work out the overtime hours I worked, the bonus portion of my compensation was essentially working for 25 bucks an hour ($15 was typo) so I have hard time feeling bad for nurses working overtime at 80 bucks an hour who are considerably less educated than me.

Alright, I'll agree with this. Still don't see many of my colleages of industry people working the hours you described (even 4-5 months for that matter). I work my guys hard as well, but the most is maybe 1 month worth of 60 maybe 70 hours because a significant project needs to be completed. Most of the time, they work regular hours. They also get flex time and have weekends off. And most package it for a longer weekend. I don't see nurses having that sort of luxury. Then again, I'm not saying they should, since they are in the business of caring for human lives, but there's nothing wrong in me acknowledging they have a harder than usual career. Something I definitely cannot do.

Originally Posted by MJM

You're out to lunch on your opening salary though. I work for a large firm, who is consistently ranked in Canada's Top Employers. Our starting salary for university recruits last year was roughly 42K. This was the higest in Canada (amongst our firm which would have to be comparable given our rankings in the workplace studies), and was even down 3K from the previous year.
Thje only professional job I know of that starts higher than that out of university is engineering. However, they get more to start, but their incremental jumps are nowhere near as large as other professional industries. BY about year 3 CA's/Lawyers/Engineers are all relatively at the same salary number (lawyers/CA's start lower but increase faster, engineers starts higher but decrease slower).

I don't know where you put nurses at, but I would rank nurses equal to engineers. No engineer I know in the last year (and I do know a lot of them), whether civil, chemical, or electronical has ever made less than $50k a year to start. I understand this is a point you do not agree with me, and that's fine.