Tipping Policy II

[Hot_Sauce]

Originally posted by Bleeding Red+Feb 8 2005, 12:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bleeding Red @ Feb 8 2005, 12:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Hot_Sauce@Feb 8 2005, 07:14 PM
Here's an interesting idea that I personally WOULDN'T support but I think it makes reasonable mathematical sense:

Take an average restaurant that has annual gross sales of $1 Million. Works out to $2740 per day. The average person spends $25 in a restaurant these days (my educated guess) means that the place sees about 110 people per day. If average tipping rates are 15% then the total yearly tipping through that place would be $150,000 or about $400 per day. Divide the $400 daily tip requirement by the 110 people per day and you get a tipping surcharge of around $3.65 per customer.

If the restaurant did this and HONESTLY split if out to the staff then nobody would have to tip. Of course servers would be pinned for tax on this so double it and make the surcharge $7 per head.

People would hate it and service would fall and restaurants would never be the same but at least you wouldn't have to tip anymore.....

Someone farther up in the thread said something about $8 for a Coke if staff were paid more? I think the math above discounts that opinion.

Do the right thing. Tip for good service and mention bad service to the server and/or the management. Don't be a coward and skulk away.

There are two things you are missing in your "math above".

1- Other taxes. If the restaurant pays out the surcharge as a part of your paycheque (as some do), they get dinged tax, not just the server. That $1 million dollar pie gets smaller. Also, patrons would be charged tax on the surcharge (7% GST) A $25 bill goes to $34.24 instead of $30.65 in the current system.

2- working hours - With set hourly wages come the desire to work lots of hours. Some restaurants employ 10 people for the two hours of lunch then only one from 2:30-5:30. THose other nine people will soon wnat more hours to make up for any loses.



Is the $1 -> $8 an out of whack ratio, sure. How about paying $4-5 (Stadium prices) for a non-refillable coke? could happen. [/b][/quote]
Good point Red. I hadn't factored that in. My ulitmate point is that in a tip free restuarant/bar world we would be paying a great deal more for the same thing and would be getting a crappier product. Like I said - I'd oppose any plan to do it.

Also. Did you know that if you were gross up the tips that wait staff make to an equilvalent salary figure you'd see that they make more than the average Canadian does? 8 hour shift, five days per week with two weeks off equals 2000 hours per year. $100 in tips (grossed up to before salary tax rates (say 35% total rate) equals 150 per day in tips plus $50 in wages = $50,000 per year. Doesn't the average Canadian make something like $38K. Maybe I 'm wrong...

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by TheyCallMeBruce@Feb 8 2005, 07:19 PM
I'm saying there are jobs that are way more underpaid and thankless than waitressing. At $7/hr, a guy at staples already makes less than an average waiter, and to top it off, the waiter gets tips. So I suppose what I'm trying to saying is I'm against tipping in general if the system of tipping cannot be fair.

Once again - Waiter earn less than minimum wage.

They earn more when you factor in tips.

The guy at staples, if he is only making minimum wage ($7.15 per hour) earns more than a waiter (without factoring in tips) - $6.85 per hour.

Another difference is that the waiter may only work 4-5 hours a day while staples guy works 7. Staples guy makes $.30 more per hour and works 1-2 hours longer than the waiter (and gets medical & dental and opportunities for advancement.)

Tips are the difference. And I understand how you feel about tips. yes there are worse jobs out there. (Restaurant manager being one of them).

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Hot_Sauce+Feb 8 2005, 07:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hot_Sauce @ Feb 8 2005, 07:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

There are two things you are missing in your "math above".

1- Other taxes. If the restaurant pays out the surcharge as a part of your paycheque (as some do), they get dinged tax, not just the server. That $1 million dollar pie gets smaller. Also, patrons would be charged tax on the surcharge (7% GST) A $25 bill goes to $34.24 instead of $30.65 in the current system.

2- working hours - With set hourly wages come the desire to work lots of hours. Some restaurants employ 10 people for the two hours of lunch then only one from 2:30-5:30. THose other nine people will soon wnat more hours to make up for any loses.



Is the $1 -> $8 an out of whack ratio, sure. How about paying $4-5 (Stadium prices) for a non-refillable coke? could happen.

Good point Red. I hadn't factored that in. My ulitmate point is that in a tip free restuarant/bar world we would be paying a great deal more for the same thing and would be getting a crappier product. Like I said - I'd oppose any plan to do it.

Also. Did you know that if you were gross up the tips that wait staff make to an equilvalent salary figure you'd see that they make more than the average Canadian does? 8 hour shift, five days per week with two weeks off equals 2000 hours per year. $100 in tips (grossed up to before salary tax rates (say 35% total rate) equals 150 per day in tips plus $50 in wages = $50,000 per year. Doesn't the average Canadian make something like $38K. Maybe I 'm wrong... [/b][/quote]
You are right.

Hell, I know some guys who work in an upscale steakhouse (and have of over twenty years) they have no mortgages, annual trips to Greece (for a month at a time) and put kids through law/medical school.

I was always more flush than my friends (who worked in ice cream paurlors, retail or at gas stations) when I was waiting tables. I earned my yearly tution in May and the rest was gravey.

the money is great if you are reasonably good at it and can hack it.

I found that after awhile I became very judgemental - labeling people as they walked through the door usually with stariotypes, and greedy (always being around cash can do that) and picky about others in the service industry.

[TheyCallMeBruce]

Originally posted by Bleeding Red+Feb 8 2005, 07:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Bleeding Red @ Feb 8 2005, 07:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-TheyCallMeBruce@Feb 8 2005, 07:19 PM
I'm saying there are jobs that are way more underpaid and thankless than waitressing. At $7/hr, a guy at staples already makes less than an average waiter, and to top it off, the waiter gets tips. So I suppose what I'm trying to saying is I'm against tipping in general if the system of tipping cannot be fair.

Once again - Waiter earn less than minimum wage.

They earn more when you factor in tips.

The guy at staples, if he is only making minimum wage ($7.15 per hour) earns more than a waiter (without factoring in tips) - $6.85 per hour.

Another difference is that the waiter may only work 4-5 hours a day while staples guy works 7. Staples guy makes $.30 more per hour and works 1-2 hours longer than the waiter (and gets medical & dental and opportunities for advancement.)

Tips are the difference. And I understand how you feel about tips. yes there are worse jobs out there. (Restaurant manager being one of them). [/b][/quote]
That's interesting, because most waiters I know make between $7.50 to $8/hr. I'm sure the class of the restaurant has a great deal to do with it.

I remember working at staples as a part timer. I worked on averge 20 hrs a week. Staples is wise enough to extend your hours, but they will refuse to give you "Full timer" status. It's a convenient way to avoid health insurance. Also, advancement is pretty hard to come by. Usually a person has to work there for 4-5 years before they see that opportunity.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by TheyCallMeBruce+Feb 8 2005, 07:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TheyCallMeBruce @ Feb 8 2005, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Once again - Waiter earn less than minimum wage.

They earn more when you factor in tips.

The guy at staples, if he is only making minimum wage ($7.15 per hour) earns more than a waiter (without factoring in tips) - $6.85 per hour.

Another difference is that the waiter may only work 4-5 hours a day while staples guy works 7. Staples guy makes $.30 more per hour and works 1-2 hours longer than the waiter (and gets medical & dental and opportunities for advancement.)

Tips are the difference. And I understand how you feel about tips. yes there are worse jobs out there. (Restaurant manager being one of them).

That's interesting, because most waiters I know make between $7.50 to $8/hr. I'm sure the class of the restaurant has a great deal to do with it.

I remember working at staples as a part timer. I worked on averge 20 hrs a week. Staples is wise enough to extend your hours, but they will refuse to give you "Full timer" status. It's a convenient way to avoid health insurance. Also, advancement is pretty hard to come by. Usually a person has to work there for 4-5 years before they see that opportunity. [/b][/quote]
Though I've mentioned this several times in the thread, it bears pointing out again.

The argument appears to be, "Servers get tipped because they're wage is so low". The reason I started this thread is to point out the possibility that "Servers get tipped because Restaurant Owners have cleverly passed their wages on to the customer in the form of Tipping".

The question is more about whether Servers (and the public) are being 'screwed' by Restaurant owners who are passing their expenses along to their customers. I understand this happens in business all the time, but I have no idea why it isn't 'hidden' like all other supply/demand issues from the customer.

A price for the product should be presented, plain and simple. I want to know what x product (service, etc.) will cost _before_ I pay for it. I think its dumb to 'rate' the service through a tax-free (?) donation that is _expected_ by the employee.

[V]

I actually can't believe the government allows tipping. All of that money that changes hands, and the government never sees. They're losing a whole lot of tax dollars there.

I think tipping is wrong. It's a way for restaurants to pass off expenses on to the public. Also, because I'm a cheap bas**rd when I eat out, the waitress will know before hand that I'm not going to be a huge tipper. I don't order wine, I usually order the cheaper stuff on the menu, and there are other signs that I'm a cheap bas**rd, so when the waitress figures out that I'm not a big tipper her service will usually slide. I still give my 15%, but the waitress doesn't know that until I'm gone.

I wish I had a job where I was given rewards every time I did my job like I was supposed to. My only reward right now is that I won't get fired. That's good enough incentive for me. Why can't it be good enough for waiters?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 12:58 PM

The question is more about whether Servers (and the public) are being 'screwed' by Restaurant owners who are passing their expenses along to their customers. I understand this happens in business all the time, but I have no idea why it isn't 'hidden' like all other supply/demand issues from the customer.

I'm a little lost I guess. By not hiding the expense, they are screwing the customer?

[Ace]

Originally posted by Bleeding Red@Feb 8 2005, 11:42 AM
food delivery person (pizza)

Yeah but do you tip the driver if there is a delivery charge?

[arsenal]

Well if resturant owners paid thier servers the wage they would make with tips (regardless of if they do a good job or not), you would see an increase in the base price of going out to eat.

Instead of $5.00 / beer, you would probably pay $7.00 - $8.00.
Instead of $10.00 for a steak, you would probably pay $15 - $20.

Would you rather have the choice not to tip the server, but pay less for food. Or pay outlandish prices? You can't have it both ways. If the salaries go up, the price of your meal goes up. There is no way you are paying $7.95 for a clubhouse, if the server is getting paid $15/hour.

And if you are server, there is no way you work in the resturant business if you aren't making any tips. There really is no incentive otherwise.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Feb 8 2005, 08:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Feb 8 2005, 08:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 12:58 PM

The question is more about whether Servers (and the public) are being 'screwed' by Restaurant owners who are passing their expenses along to their customers. I understand this happens in business all the time, but I have no idea why it isn't 'hidden' like all other supply/demand issues from the customer.

I'm a little lost I guess. By not hiding the expense, they are screwing the customer? [/b][/quote]
Ok, I'll re-word.

I'm supposing that Restaurants are decreasing their legitimate staff costs by making the customer pay the bulk of their salaries. This allows Restaurants to cut expenses in a huge way, that is totally uncommon in other sectors of Service and other industries.

My beef is mainly questioning why Restaurants put both their servers and customers in the awkward position of working out what amounts to the Server's salary. They should be paid a regular wage to do a regular job. If incentives are required, then there should be commission on headcount/food sold or something.

Basically, I'm sick of having to figure out how much to pay this individual, or why I even have to. I'm tired of paying some service-personnel because society _requires_ it of me, and yet other service-personnel, who do the same type/amount of work, get tipped nothing?

I think restaurants are getting around some major tax issues with this style of pay. Also, I'm sure the govt. is getting screwed out of cash somewhere here, as i doubt all these tips are declared, as was pointed out above.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally posted by Agamemnon@Feb 8 2005, 07:58 PM

The argument appears to be, "Servers get tipped because they're wage is so low". The reason I started this thread is to point out the possibility that "Servers get tipped because Restaurant Owners have cleverly passed their wages on to the customer in the form of Tipping".

The question is more about whether Servers (and the public) are being 'screwed' by Restaurant owners who are passing their expenses along to their customers. I understand this happens in business all the time, but I have no idea why it isn't 'hidden' like all other supply/demand issues from the customer.

A price for the product should be presented, plain and simple. I want to know what x product (service, etc.) will cost _before_ I pay for it. I think its dumb to 'rate' the service through a tax-free (?) donation that is _expected_ by the employee.

I'll give it a shot. THis is all suppostion mind you .

I do not think it is a clever way that restauranteurs have passed their labour costs to the diner.

I think tipping came about as a way for rich people to show their appreciation to a stranger for going out of his/her way. (The rich may also have seen it as a bit of a status symbol "I'm extremely wealthy, so here's and extra $5 to show how good I am")
They wouldn't give their butler a tip, but the hotel bell-boy gets one for doing the same job.

I think that today if a restauranteur wanted to abolish tipping in his place the price you would see "before you pay for it" would be so out of whack with what we are used to the industry would suffer. (an extra 7% cost the industry millions) Imagine, one day your entree is $15 the next day its $25.

Would the restaurantuer be better off trying a commission system? You know the cost of everything, the waiter tries to get you to spend a bit more to increase the comission paid by the boss, not the patron. The waiter sells more, the restaurant makes more, the commission is higher. Could it work?

[V]

Originally posted by arsenal@Feb 8 2005, 01:14 PM
Well if resturant owners paid thier servers the wage they would make with tips (regardless of if they do a good job or not), you would see an increase in the base price of going out to eat.

Instead of $5.00 / beer, you would probably pay $7.00 - $8.00.
Instead of $10.00 for a steak, you would probably pay $15 - $20.

Would you rather have the choice not to tip the server, but pay less for food. Or pay outlandish prices? You can't have it both ways. If the salaries go up, the price of your meal goes up. There is no way you are paying $7.95 for a clubhouse, if the server is getting paid $15/hour.

And if you are server, there is no way you work in the resturant business if you aren't making any tips. There really is no incentive otherwise.

Yes. I would prefer to have to pay what everyone else is paying in the restaurant. It's the way the rest of the world works. If I have to pay an additional 10 bucks, so be it. At least there's no pressure to figure out how much I have to tip someone.

So servers have no incentive to work other than tips?? Since when? If they do a sh*tty job they get fired. If they do well they get bonuses, incentives, yadda yadda yadda, just like the rest of the world. What makes a server so special?

If there is a demand for servers, the positions will be filled. We don't live in a country where people have no choice in where they work. If restaurants can't get servers because they don't pay enough, or don't have enough incentives, I have a feeling that the industry will change. I have a hard time believing that we will suddenly have to serve ourselves when we go out to eat.

[arsenal]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken+Feb 8 2005, 01:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Dominicwasalreadytaken @ Feb 8 2005, 01:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-arsenal@Feb 8 2005, 01:14 PM
Well if resturant owners paid thier servers the wage they would make with tips (regardless of if they do a good job or not), you would see an increase in the base price of going out to eat.

Instead of $5.00 / beer, you would probably pay $7.00 - $8.00.
Instead of $10.00 for a steak, you would probably pay $15 - $20.

Would you rather have the choice not to tip the server, but pay less for food. Or pay outlandish prices? You can't have it both ways. If the salaries go up, the price of your meal goes up. There is no way you are paying $7.95 for a clubhouse, if the server is getting paid $15/hour.

And if you are server, there is no way you work in the resturant business if you aren't making any tips. There really is no incentive otherwise.

Yes. I would prefer to have to pay what everyone else is paying in the restaurant. It's the way the rest of the world works. If I have to pay an additional 10 bucks, so be it. At least there's no pressure to figure out how much I have to tip someone.

So servers have no incentive to work other than tips?? Since when? If they do a sh*tty job they get fired. If they do well they get bonuses, incentives, yadda yadda yadda, just like the rest of the world. What makes a server so special?

If there is a demand for servers, the positions will be filled. We don't live in a country where people have no choice in where they work. If restaurants can't get servers because they don't pay enough, or don't have enough incentives, I have a feeling that the industry will change. I have a hard time believing that we will suddenly have to serve ourselves when we go out to eat. [/b][/quote]
But you are already paying what everyone else is paying. The choice to tip and if you do decide to tip, how much that tip is, is completely up to you. You could go in, get your food, not tip anything, and you will paying about $15 less than you would if the cost of salaries where passed directly onto you through meal prices.

As far as figuring out how much to tip someone. Take the GST and multiply by 2. That gives you 14%. Pretty simple actually.

[V]

As far as figuring out how much to tip someone. Take the GST and multiply by 2. That gives you 14%. Pretty simple actually.

Oh, that's not the problem. I'm an engineer, I think I can figure out the math. It's the social pressure of knowing what's fair for the service that was given. Why should a customer have an impact on what a person makes? I would think that would be the responsibility of the employer, just like the rest of the world.

[Agamemnon]

Originally posted by Dominicwasalreadytaken@Feb 8 2005, 08:30 PM
As far as figuring out how much to tip someone. Take the GST and multiply by 2. That gives you 14%. Pretty simple actually.

Oh, that's not the problem. I'm an engineer, I think I can figure out the math. It's the social pressure of knowing what's fair for the service that was given. Why should a customer have an impact on what a person makes? I would think that would be the responsibility of the employer, just like the rest of the world.

Yep, its not because we 'can't do the math' and need it made simpler.

Its the fact that its my responsibility to 'pay' this person a bulk of their salary... and its up to me how much. I don't think its a 'good' system, I think its stupid.

[Cain]

The system might be stupid. Fine. But if you think it is and then go out and deliberately do not tip, who are you really screwing? The big business that profits by this, or the person trying to make an honest living off of it?

It would be great if we didn't have to tip. Awesome. But with the system in place, we do. Period. You don't tip, you are screwing the person who served you your food for no reason other than you don't approve of the system or are just a cheap....person. Way to make a statement by taking it out on someone who deserves it eh.

And I'd like to see the substantial "bonuses and incentives" that waiters/waitresses get for doing their job well "just like everyone else." (I mean company bonuses, not a tip) Haven't heard too much about those. In fact, nothing really.

[Lurch]

I think you are looking at this in entirely the wrong way. There is no way wages would go up for restaurant workers in the absence of tips. There are plenty of students around that will work for $7 to $8/hour. However, today restaurants can attract the best 'talent' for their $7 to $8 bucks, while without tips most people would probably work at a different low pay job. Basically, the system has passed on the premium necessary to get the best workers (read hottest chicks) to the customer AND done it in a way that screws the gov't out of revenue.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Neeper+Feb 8 2005, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Neeper @ Feb 8 2005, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I don't beleive your 10% number at all

That's because it's not!!!!!! Stop spouting B.S. Caramon. I've done both as well and was in the game for 5 years. No where does a server tip out 10% to support/kitchen staff. There would be an uproar, considering most customer onlytip 10% anyways. The number is 3.5% - 5% at most. [/b][/quote]
As a former employee at Earls, its 10%. I'm not exactly sure how it was completely divided, mgmt got some, bar got some, and kitchen alone got 3%.

As far as doing carryouts for grocery stores.... in 3 years of doing carry outs, only once I received a tip. And that was from a friends mom totalling 1$ (and no I wasn't that bad).

[FlamesAllTheWay]

Meh, I just tip based on whatever I have handy. System works great for stuff like delivery cause I can tip 2 bucks or 5 bucks knowing it'll all even out in the end if i'm tipping too high or too low. For resteraunts and stuff, I just sorta tip whatever I feel like tipping...

[Nabber]

This is a neat topic as I have been stuck in the restuarant industry for way to many years because of the extra money earned from tips. My opinion may be biased but I feel we tip to receive good service. Using the carryout grocery person as an example is not fair as how can you really receive bad service from someone carrying out your groceries, it's not like they'll drop your bags if you're known as a bad tipper. But as a server if I'm not getting a tip from a table whats the point of wowing your table by getting refills quicker, or checking back to see if foods tasting ok, personally I'd be in the back reading the newspaper til they're done eating. I tip my hairdresser if they do a good job on my hair, if I order pick up I will tip if my food is made on time, therefore tips ensure better service.