Board to decide bus beheader's fate

[valo403]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

Haha.....I am talking about how you hear alot in the media about a certain suspect "pleading insanity" when really they just snapped.................insanity is considered a mental illness no?

Don't go race on me here...........

You do understand that simply pleading insanity doesn't mean that the court goes 'oh, well insanity it is then', right?

[valo403]

Originally Posted by Peanut

But what's the difference between being insane and "just snapping"? I like to think that no matter how angry or stressed or whatever other crap life throws at me, that cutting someone's head off during my snap-episode is definitely NOT going to be the reaction.

And by all accounts nothing really instigated this guy's attack. He just was sitting in his seat and then got up and committed the murder out of nowhere.

Maybe when an already insane person snaps the consequences are just worse? I don't really know. Just not sure if there's a difference between "snapping" and being insane.

I'm assuming you're not a psychologist as there is certainly a very big difference, and that is recognized by the law.

Dammit, just realized I'm responding to 3 year old posts.

[CaptainCrunch]

I know this is a U.S. based article but it takes about the use of and the success of the NGRI plea

Just to give some background.

http://psychology.jrank.org/pages/33...y-Defense.html

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I feel bad for people with mental illnesses but imo that shouldnt give people a free pass on the justice system.

He cut a mans head off. I dont care what he is suffering from, HE CUT A MANS HEAD OFF.

He's not being given a free pass though. He will possibly have supervised 1/2 hour visits into the community.

People are acting like the mental hospital is handing him a garbage bag full of his possessions, a prescription for his meds and saying "You should find a pharmacy to fill that today. On your way then!"

[Bobblehead]

It is kind of funny that people are quoting and responding to points made 3 years ago.

Not that they aren't valid responses, just don't expect the people from 3 years ago to reply.

[Puppet Guy]

we're all looking in the wrong place, people - turns out Li was possessed by a Wendigo:

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Features...13481-sun.html

On July 20 -- just 10 days before the killing -- Li delivered copies of the Sun that contained an extensive interview with Carlson about his research into the Windigo, a terrifying creature in native mythology that has a ravenous appetite for human flesh. It could take possession of people and turn them into cannibalistic monsters.


Carlson documented several cases in northern Alberta communities where people believing they were "turning Windigo" would go into convulsions, make terrifying animal sounds and beg their captors to kill them before they started eating people.
In last month's bus case, Li allegedly butchered McLean's body, brandishing the victim's severed head at the men who trapped him on the bus until police could arrive.

He was later accused of eating McLean's flesh.
When he appeared in a Portage La Prairie courthouse on charges of second-degree murder, the only words Li reportedly uttered were pleas for someone to kill him.

[afc wimbledon]

He was later accused of eating McLean's flesh.
When he appeared in a Portage La Prairie courthouse on charges of second-degree murder, the only words Li reportedly uttered were pleas for someone to kill him.

I'm with Li on this one, for the life of me I cannot understand why the first cop on the scene, when confronted by a guy holding a human head and attempting to eat peices of it, didn't just shoot the guy.

[krynski]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

I feel bad for people with mental illnesses but imo that shouldnt give people a free pass on the justice system.

He cut a mans head off. I dont care what he is suffering from, HE CUT A MANS HEAD OFF.

Psychotic episodes involve a great deal of misjudgement. Some manage well while being medicated and are generally not a threat to the public. John Nash is a big name you might be able to recognize.

This man was not in the right mind set. He did not know what he was doing. It would be like someone driving, and running over someone who teleported flat onto the ground immediately infront of the tires. His perception of everything is skewed.

Psychosis could involve a lot of factors. Some see things that are not existing. The most common is hearing voices. Whether these voices, allusions, or whatever you want to call them, talk to the individual is a different story. Some have conversations, while others appear to report that a conversation is going on and they only percieve a conversation by 2 or more other "people".

It distorts ones beliefs, ones ethics and morals. Its like a different world. Nothing is reality. Some report they are part of a "bigger plan", that aliens or god or someone is talking to them.

I know i've said this before, but i'm going to say its a curse. It's a curse. No one wants to experience psychosis. The interpersonal consequences for bearing a schizophrenic diagnosis is devastating. Their lives are generally horrible.

He did do something terrible, I will admit. He was lawfully proved to be "insane". Is that not enough? There is a reason insanity covers that the individual is not lawfully liable. Rehabilitation and constant supervision should be able to restore quite normative behaviour in this individual. If this is the case, why shouldn't he be able to live a somewhat sub-normal life?





FYI: For those that believe insanity is a good defense: The individuals that are deemed "insane" <- again, lawful term not medical- Generally have a much higher incarceration period by a lot. It is not a good defense to plead insanity if you are not insane.

There is no way that people that suffer from this kind of mental illness should suffer the way that people with perfect cognitive ability should. Also, the definition of insanity is only permissable is some cases.
This individual will have to deal with the consequences of his actions. He will be monitored for an indefinite period, if not permanently. The DSM has a wide variety of disorders, and the vast majority of these would not be permissably deemed reasons to be considered insane. Intense psychosis is, and it definitely should be.


EDIT: Please note, intensity of psychosis can vary a lot between individuals. I'm not one, so I can't tell you what the min and max are like. I would imagine the min would be hearing people talking and only on some occasions. The max (IMO) could probably be close to severly impaired auditory and visual "hallucinations"

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

He was later accused of eating McLean's flesh.
When he appeared in a Portage La Prairie courthouse on charges of second-degree murder, the only words Li reportedly uttered were pleas for someone to kill him.

I'm with Li on this one, for the life of me I cannot understand why the first cop on the scene, when confronted by a guy holding a human head and attempting to eat peices of it, didn't just shoot the guy.

Because that would be manslaughter, if not murder?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Because that would be manslaughter, if not murder?

I have no doubt Li would have given them adaquate excuse to shoot him, he was waving a bowie knife around whilst chewing on the bloody head of his victim. On top of that I doubt they were certain if there was anyone else on the bus, therefore had a good reason to enter and arrest Li, which would have precipitated a confrontation that would have ended with Li's shooting.

[Dion]

Feds review law after news of bus beheader Vince Li's possible escorted leaves

Nicholson said Canadians have expressed concerns about the risks posed by people who are found to be not criminally responsible.


"They are worried that those who have committed very serious and violent acts and who represent a threat to the community may be released onto our streets," Nicholson wrote in a statement.

McLean's mother, Carol de Delley, said Monday letting Li go puts the public at risk. She has long advocated for a law which would keep mentally ill killers such as Li behind bars indefinitely, regardless of any improvement in their illness

Chris Summerville, chief executive officer of the Schizophrenia Society of Canada, urged the government not to set public policy based on the highly emotional circumstances of one particular case.


"It was such a grotesque, horrific, ghastly event," said Summerville. "I don't expect to witness that again in my lifetime. To make public policy on one event that is driven by a lot of emotion is not good policy."


Summerville said public safety is crucial but so are individual rights and the two must be balanced. People who pose a high risk to the public are not released but those who are low risk must be, he said.

Li's psychiatrist, Dr. Steven Kremer, told the review board — which looks annually at Li's case — that his patient is on medication and experiencing no symptoms or hallucinations. Assessments have shown him to have a 0.8 per cent chance of reoffending in the next seven years.

http://www.canada.com/news/Feds+revi...811/story.html

[valo403]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have no doubt Li would have given them adaquate excuse to shoot him, he was waving a bowie knife around whilst chewing on the bloody head of his victim. On top of that I doubt they were certain if there was anyone else on the bus, therefore had a good reason to enter and arrest Li, which would have precipitated a confrontation that would have ended with Li's shooting.

Well if we're going to sit here and concoct fantasy situations to justify things there's really nothing we can't come up with then

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have no doubt Li would have given them adaquate excuse to shoot him, he was waving a bowie knife around whilst chewing on the bloody head of his victim. On top of that I doubt they were certain if there was anyone else on the bus, therefore had a good reason to enter and arrest Li, which would have precipitated a confrontation that would have ended with Li's shooting.

I must agree with Valo403.

I am not fan of Li (not saying those like Valo403 are fans) but I hate when people second guess police and their reactions in a stress situation.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by valo403

Well if we're going to sit here and concoct fantasy situations to justify things there's really nothing we can't come up with then

The first cops, by their own account, arrived to find the passengers huddled outside the bus while Li was running up and down the center aisle of the bus waving a large hunting knife and a bloody head, in some acounts when the police got there he confronted them from the other side of the bus door with the head and then googed out the eyeballs.

Crack heads have been shoot by the VPD for alot less on the downtown eastside.

[Zevo]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The first cops, by their own account, arrived to find the passengers huddled outside the bus while Li was running up and down the center aisle of the bus waving a large hunting knife and a bloody head, in some acounts when the police got there he confronted them from the other side of the bus door with the head and then googed out the eyeballs.

Crack heads have been shoot by the VPD for alot less on the downtown eastside.

BS and you know it. If a crack head was shot, it was because the officer thought his life was in danger...no ones life was in danger with the way the events unfolded after everyone was off the bus.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The first cops, by their own account, arrived to find the passengers huddled outside the bus while Li was running up and down the center aisle of the bus waving a large hunting knife and a bloody head, in some acounts when the police got there he confronted them from the other side of the bus door with the head and then googed out the eyeballs.

Crack heads have been shoot by the VPD for alot less on the downtown eastside.

Police will only shoot someone if they are threat to the life of the officer or anyone nearby. Li was inside the bus and not a threat to anyone.

[Coys1882]

Blaming a non-medicated schizophrenic for acting crazy is like blaming a person with heart disease for having a heart attack or an epileptic for having a seizure. Granted the latter two don't kill people when their diseases manifest themselves but the point remains.

I don't think he's a monster - he's a very very sick man who at the time was living in a reality which was 'normal' to him; regardless of how insane that sounds to us.

All this being said - if he knew he was a risk for violence and went off his meds, he should be held accountable for letting himself get into that state - same as a person letting them self get so drunk they drive and kill someone. Regardless though - the past has been written and he should be subjected to mandatory meds for the rest of his life - daily reports to a P.O. or doctor who administers his medication I.M. so there is no doubt. He misses an appointment - he's arrested and stripped of his freedom.

[corporatejay]

Li's psychiatrist, Dr. Steven Kremer, told the review board — which looks annually at Li's case — that his patient is on medication and experiencing no symptoms or hallucinations. Assessments have shown him to have a 0.8 per cent chance of reoffending in the next seven years.

I suspect this 0.8% chance is only if he's on medication, which presumably he can go off of. The risk to the community is too great but i'm okay with supervised/escorted leave.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

I suspect this 0.8% chance is only if he's on medication, which presumably he can go off of. The risk to the community is too great but i'm okay with supervised/escorted leave.

Further comments from his shrink:

"The privileges being asked for... would not place the public at high risk," Kremer told the board. "He has done very well. He has been a robust responder. He understands if he were not to take his medication, he would experience a deterioration."

Kremer and another psychiatrist described Li as a model patient who has had no incidents with staff or other patients and has shown great insight into what he's done. Li has improved his English and taken occupational therapy programs, including job training and meal preparation.

Crown attorney Susan Helenchilde did not oppose either of the recommendations, citing the expert reports of two doctors who have worked closely with Li since the killing.

http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/loc...152001055.html

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The first cops, by their own account, arrived to find the passengers huddled outside the bus while Li was running up and down the center aisle of the bus waving a large hunting knife and a bloody head, in some acounts when the police got there he confronted them from the other side of the bus door with the head and then googed out the eyeballs.

Crack heads have been shoot by the VPD for alot less on the downtown eastside.

I don't think you quite understand how police shootings work. They're based on a threat to civilians and the responding officers lives, not on how bad of a crime has been commited. Police don't get to say "Oh my god, what a terrible crime he's commited, let's shoot him". Because like Valo43 said, that would be manslaughter, if not murder.