Young American's losing their religion.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by peter12

Bizarre. I think the way we have it is fine. Stop minding other people's business and mind your own.

Comments like this stink. They show no liberalism, no understanding of our society, just the plain old urge to push the state's coercion into all aspects of people's lives.

It's not contradictory to liberalism. Liberalism is not the right to do anything. That's anarchy. Liberalism stipulates that your rights can only go so far as to not infringe on the rights of others. As such, you need prioritize rights. So what you would perceive an infringements of your rights can in fact be the application liberalism.

If the religious people were all on another planet, their actions would be none of my business. As they are not, and I am a stakeholder in this one, it is my business.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by GGG

Here is where you have to be very careful. I for one believe parental rights trump most other rights. If someone wants to raise there kid to be racist they should be allowed to. If you start regulating parental athority you very quickly eliminate any kind of freedoms we have in society.

Your position seems to be that you would eliminate or severly restrict freedom of speech in order to impose state approved parenting messages.

Not really: you can teach your kids that evolution is a lie (which I agree is necessary) but where there's a real problem is where you prevent the school system from teaching it to them. Freedom of speech does not imply denial of access to competing ideas. Competition of ideas is why you need freedom of speech in the first place.

Our society already recognizes that children have some rights that superceed some parental rights. We just need to go a bit further.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Lord I love these threads. No chance on a sticky for this there huh?

You forgot the part where people who don't want to participate in the thread come in and tell everyone they think the thread sucks (for what purpose I'm not sure, a cry for attention maybe?).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SebC

Not really: you can teach your kids that evolution is a lie (which I agree is necessary) but where there's a real problem is where you prevent the school system from teaching it to them. Freedom of speech does not imply denial of access to competing ideas. Competition of ideas is why you need freedom of speech in the first place.

Our society already recognizes that children have some rights that superceed some parental rights. We just need to go a bit further.

No, you can't 'prevent' the school from teaching it, but you can pull your kids out.

Which is still the parents right.

At some point you have to realize that not everyone will have your viewpoint. Especially when it comes to issues like evolution, abortion, sex, etc.

The school will continue to have safe sex classes, teach evolution....like they should, but parents have the right to pull their child out from those classes.

Provided they don't get in trouble with the government and the whole idea of refusing their children an education.

[Azure]

Regarding a bit more of the OP.....I think instead of a push AWAY from religion, we're seeing a push away from the fanatical, hardline approach to religious beliefs.

Which I think we would all agree is good.

And with that comes a greater acceptance of evolution, and different liberal ideas.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by photon

You forgot the part where people who don't want to participate in the thread come in and tell everyone they think the thread sucks (for what purpose I'm not sure, a cry for attention maybe?).

I see what you did there....

Good point. I wasn't driving by to say the thread sucked. It's just that every time one of these threads starts, it seems there are maybe 10 posts that are OT and good, and then it devolves into the same old crap. I know it's fun and all, but it's also fun to bitch about it!

Also yes, I like attention.

To be OT, it's no surprise the younger generation is "losing its religion". In my experience, those who are religious are the exception, not the rule anymore. And if that is the case, who the hell cares. We've all started to truly accept the same god, Money. Sounds good to me.

[CaramonLS]

Meh.

To be honest I think that certain peoples reactions to "Young America" losing their religion - such as having the ability to pull their kids out of sex ed/evolution classes is simply going to back fire right in their faces.

One of the features of this younger generation is that these kids are developing their critical thinking skills a heck of a lot earlier than their parents did. Part of this has to do with the Internet, their ability to access it and the free-flow of information across borders.

Kids actually ask the question "Why?" Reggie brought this up in an earlier post. When their parents can't supply logical answers and deny them the information, they are going to go look it up themselves. Short of locking your child in a box, you can't prevent this spread of information.

Heck, we need look no further than our own Azure. Go through his posting history, see how his thinking has progressed and how much he has grown as a person since coming to CP. I know he has posted on this exact topic before and he'll be the first to tell you how much he has changed.

I think this trend will continue to grow in the next couple of years unless organized religion does something to reform itself. The church needs to align itself more with the societal norms of the younger generation, because these red herring issues such as abortion and gay marriage are alienating people from joining.

That, in addition to becoming a much more transparent organization - you push people away when you have something to hide and try to spread misinformation (condoms, birth control, etc). Things like Creation museums and other forms of intellectual dishonesty are really going to hurt the image of religion in the long run.

There is a place for a spiritual belief system in modern society, at least for a certain segment of the population. I've had one of my best friends confide in me saying that religion is one of the things that keeps him from going over the edge and that he doesn't know what he would do if it wasn't there.

Become transparent and open. You'll probably see more people coming over to your side again.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

You forgot the part where people who don't want to participate in the thread come in and tell everyone they think the thread sucks (for what purpose I'm not sure, a cry for attention maybe?).

Or maybe many of us just get sick of seeing the same recycled crap every week, how about we bring in a pastor and shove a sermon down your throat. It's all cut from the same cloth. You can ignore it but it pisses you off that you have to see it every week. It's a lot like Canadian Tire commercials, they won't go away.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Heck, we need look no further than our own Azure. Go through his posting history, see how his thinking has progressed and how much he has grown as a person since coming to CP. I know he has posted on this exact topic before and he'll be the first to tell you how much he has changed.

Yeah, now if people would know the first username I posted under, it would be even better.

Too bad all the threads prior to 2005 are gone.

Either way, while it is true that having access to the internet, open debate with people on various forums, being able to research stuff for yourself.....helps your thinking progress....there is still the possibility of turning into a 'truther'....or a conspiracy theorist, or even someone that gets into the 'end times' crap.

As important as it is to have access to information, its also important to have people constantly challenge you, challenge your beliefs, challenge everything you believe in.

As crazy as it sounds, and as heated as the threads here on CP get, our little community provides exactly that....a challenge to what you believe. And it forces you to rethink your position and make sure you're not blindly believing something.

From Lanny, Rouge, IFF, yourself, Daradon, and a few others I should be remembering.....everyone has been part of changing the way I look at just about everything.

Go back and find the threads I was involved in that were about same-sex marriage and abortion, and the progression in thinking is obvious.

Not that I think that my outlook is the only right one, but I tend to think that an outlook that doesn't judge people for the choices they make, or the lifestyle they live is a beneficial one.

[photon]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

Good point. I wasn't driving by to say the thread sucked. It's just that every time one of these threads starts, it seems there are maybe 10 posts that are OT and good, and then it devolves into the same old crap. I know it's fun and all, but it's also fun to bitch about it!

Well start a thread to do the bitching, it does kind of derail the thread (which I'm also doing, I should infract myself ).

It does get repetitious, but so does every political thread, or thread about gun control, or cops, or anything else where there's opposing views.

But I will say that I for one have definitely changed my mind about things as a direct result of the discussions and arguments presented on this forum, so it isn't just noise.

Originally Posted by ResAlien

To be OT, it's no surprise the younger generation is "losing its religion". In my experience, those who are religious are the exception, not the rule anymore. And if that is the case, who the hell cares. We've all started to truly accept the same god, Money. Sounds good to me.

That's harsh. I don't think that people are losing their religion and putting money as their god. I think the paradigm of how people communicate and learn and even think is changing, the Internet has enabled something people have NEVER had in all of history, that's going to change things.

Religion has filled specific needs in people, and young people now are coming to realize that it doesn't have to be that way.

As I mentioned, even theists I know are leaving religion in the traditional sense and starting new types of congregating (or old types, depending on how you see things).. so losing their religion, but not losing their faith.

I think to say that everyone who doesn't have religion in their lives replaces it with money as their God is a real insult to them.

Originally Posted by Finny61

Or maybe many of us just get sick of seeing the same recycled crap every week, how about we bring in a pastor and shove a sermon down your throat. It's all cut from the same cloth. You can ignore it but it pisses you off that you have to see it every week. It's a lot like Canadian Tire commercials, they won't go away.

It's not really recycled, most threads have a new unique topic.. it often comes back to familiar ground though because things are based on a foundation, and religion is one of the foundations of our culture. And as Azure pointed out, people actually get something out of it.

A pastor posting a sermon wouldn't really go over well since by definition a sermon is a one way thing, while a discussion forum is about discussion.

Why would it piss you off to see it every week? People are interested in different things than you, and people hold different viewpoints, is that so difficult to put up with?

[Azure]

I usually don't mind these threads, even if I don't post in them until the tail end(see the recent thread about evolution and parents/school).

If the thread title doesn't interest me, I don't click on it.

Not that big of a deal, really.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Azure

No, you can't 'prevent' the school from teaching it, but you can pull your kids out.

Which is still the parents right.

At some point you have to realize that not everyone will have your viewpoint. Especially when it comes to issues like evolution, abortion, sex, etc.

The school will continue to have safe sex classes, teach evolution....like they should, but parents have the right to pull their child out from those classes.

Provided they don't get in trouble with the government and the whole idea of refusing their children an education.

I agree with your statement of facts.

I just don't think it should be that way. How is it in the interests of the child to deny them safe sex eduction, or to block them from being introduced to the concept of evolution?

[ResAlien]

I was a bit glib in my response regarding people replacing God with Money. What I meant to try to convey was that society as a whole, imo, is moving towards a much more secular mindstate. What really matters is success, wealth, "happiness", the whole picket fence and nuclear family bullspit.

With society now, internet, news, cable, satellite etc, the information overload shows the worst of people, and the best I guess. Really, people are seeing that the whole God garbage they've bought into for years is really just a crutch to help them get along. Yes, I know, the exact same example could be used to "reaffirm my belief in God" and all that. Long story short, secularism is taking religion over like a mofo, and I love it.

Crap, I've really got to learn to try and make my points when I'm sober.

[Hack&Lube]

Europe and places like Quebec became almost entirely areligious within one generation. It's not going to happen as fast or at all in the U.S. but I'm just saying this kind of thing is not without precedent.

[Finny61]

Originally Posted by photon

It's not really recycled, most threads have a new unique topic.. it often comes back to familiar ground though because things are based on a foundation, and religion is one of the foundations of our culture. And as Azure pointed out, people actually get something out of it.

A pastor posting a sermon wouldn't really go over well since by definition a sermon is a one way thing, while a discussion forum is about discussion.

Why would it piss you off to see it every week? People are interested in different things than you, and people hold different viewpoints, is that so difficult to put up with?

Yeah it's recycled, it found it's way back to home schooling, sex, and other social issues that have come up time and time again. No one with a religious bone in their body wants anything to do with these threads because they have no interest in being challenged, they are quite comfortable with their belief base whether it be conservative, moderate, or off the wall hardcore. Regardless the only thing this promotes is content for those looking for some incentive or confidence to firmly entrench a belief in either no god, organized religion, or an opportunity to be ignorant and bash like the chap who said the world is free when religion is stamped out. It's ignorance.

A sermon is not a one way street, go to a church, it makes you think most of the time, sometimes it is a bit about the way you should live which no one likes being directed on these days but then's when you grow up and discover the world doesn't revolve around just you. Unfortunately the church is system is a bit off I agree but the positives still outweigh the negatives in most cases.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Yeah it's recycled, it found it's way back to home schooling, sex, and other social issues that have come up time and time again.

As I said, those issues are foundational to our society, why would it be surprising for discussions to come back to that.

Originally Posted by Finny61

No one with a religious bone in their body wants anything to do with these threads because they have no interest in being challenged, they are quite comfortable with their belief base whether it be conservative, moderate, or off the wall hardcore.

Not true, there are people who are religious who are very open to having their beliefs challenged. Some people want to know their beliefs hold up under scrutiny, while others don't care if they do. If you are in the latter group, then just stay out of threads that question beliefs. It's not hard.

Originally Posted by Finny61

Regardless the only thing this promotes is content for those looking for some incentive or confidence to firmly entrench a belief in either no god, organized religion, or an opportunity to be ignorant and bash like the chap who said the world is free when religion is stamped out. It's ignorance.

Don't presume to know people's motivations or project your own into them. And don't presume that just because their position disagrees with yours that it's ignorant.

Saying that religion is something negative and needs to be stamped out is not bashing, there are very intelligent people (including some who have faith) who think that religion is harmful, and have well reasoned reasons and support for their positions.

Originally Posted by Finny61

A sermon is not a one way street, go to a church, it makes you think most of the time, sometimes it is a bit about the way you should live which no one likes being directed on these days but then's when you grow up and discover the world doesn't revolve around just you. Unfortunately the church is system is a bit off I agree but the positives still outweigh the negatives in most cases.

What does that have to do with what I said? I said a sermon was one way, which it is. Very few sermons involve a discussion between whoever's speaking and the congregation. I've given many sermons.

[Finny61]

Your throwing theories, thanks for the sermon.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Finny61

Your throwing theories, thanks for the sermon.

How am I throwing theories? People in this very thread have said things that support what I've said.

You're the one making broad statements about ALL religious people, and all the non-religious people posting on CP.

You accuse me of giving a sermon, when it seems I'm the one actually willing to engage in discussion while you ignore what I say.

If you can't finish something, don't start it.

[Hack&Lube]

I'm not getting into this, but it would be interesting to see what would happen in a church if pastor gave his sermon online via chat or discussion board, and all the members of the congregation could post along with it. Sort of like a GDT. You would really get the true voice of the congregation and less of the sleepy uninvolved sheep effect I hated so much whenever I had gone to church in my youth. I just never agreed with a lot of the stuff being said. Maybe that's just my nature.

[photon]

Some people I know actually do that kind of thing, rather than a guy on a pulpit talking to the congregation they just have a group and everyone can contribute. There might be a leader (pastor) but he's more like what a shepherd actually does, guides the discussion, makes sure people keep on topic, etc, he isn't the authority that current churches place him as. So it's more like a discussion here, rather than an authority telling people how to interpret the scriptures.

They say their setup is more biblical too, the current liturgy and power structure in the church has much influence from pagan sources. An interesting book on that subject actually is Pagan Christianity? Exploring the Roots of our Church Practices.