'IRA' violence is back

[CaptainCrunch]

There's a big difference between fighting a war and mounting a campaign of terror.

There's a huge difference between being a soldier and being a thug with a gun or a murderer.

The concept that the IRA or any of those groups was fighting a war of independance is laughable at best, mainly because they went after soft unarmed civilian targets.

They were fighting a vendetta, nothing more. They're no better then the thugs that took the planes into the World Trade Center.

They're not soldiers fighting a heroic battle, they're death dealers blowing up pubs and shooting teenagers.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by flip

I know. It is a little late for William Wallace type stuff. We had our own revolutionary in Michael Collins and even that was about 500 years too late and it didn't really work. At this point the Brits are pretty much permanently stuck in N. Ireland. Even if they did let it rejoin with the Republic, which I doubt, the North is still infiltrated with a bunch of Protestant loyalists anyways.

Man I hate the effing British. They left India 50 god damn years ago and they are still in Ireland. How in the hell does that make sense?

You know the Irish signed a treaty that entitled the North to the British... right?

You know Collins supported that treaty, right?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by flip

Your people have been effing with Ireland for about 1000 damn years. I know the rapping and pillaging isn't common anymore but the resentment is still there from the Irish point of view.

I won't go so far as to say I support what these IRA wannabes are doing because that is obviously wrong. That being said if the British don't want problems maybe they shouldn't invade other peoples countries for a thousand god damn years. Like I said they left India 50 years ago. Unfortunately at this point they are so deeply entrenched I'm not sure if it matters. They'll probably never leave.

This is why nationalists are stupid.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by peter12

You know the Irish signed a treaty that entitled the North to the British... right?

You know Collins supported that treaty, right?

wasting your time.......

[flip]

Originally Posted by Mean Mr. Mustard

I don't think you know the first thing about war or killing. I hope your post about going and fighting the English or whatever is some sort of hyperbole, because if it isn't it really makes me question your decision making abilities.

Well it has to be taken in context. Obviously there is no war to fight. In fact I have made it abundantly clear that there is no war or oppression going on right now in N Ireland.

The comment came from that other genius in this thread asking if I'd fight. If it was a hundred years ago, when the Brits were still oppressive and a war of independence was feasible then yes I think I'd seriously consider fighting for the Irish.

Obviously at this point in time, like I've already mentioned about 10 times, there is no war and most of the British/Protestants are deeply entrenched in society and if British rule was gone then they'd likely live in harmony.

There is nothing left to fight, except with diplomacy.

I did very specifically mention that only loyalists, that I have a problem with. I don't care what nationality you are, as long as you support the country you are living in then that is fine. It is those who support the British occupation of a sovereign nation that bother me.

[flip]

Originally Posted by peter12

You know the Irish signed a treaty that entitled the North to the British... right?

You know Collins supported that treaty, right?

So. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand. We're not debating Michael Collins, we're debating the British occupying another country.

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by flip

So.

so it would appear the irish made their bed......

[Rathji]

Originally Posted by flip

So. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand. We're not debating Michael Collins, we're debating the British occupying another country.

Is it another country if it was ceded via treaty? I have always thought of it as such, but what it the legal status?

[flip]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

There's a big difference between fighting a war and mounting a campaign of terror.

There's a huge difference between being a soldier and being a thug with a gun or a murderer.

The concept that the IRA or any of those groups was fighting a war of independance is laughable at best, mainly because they went after soft unarmed civilian targets.

They were fighting a vendetta, nothing more. They're no better then the thugs that took the planes into the World Trade Center.

They're not soldiers fighting a heroic battle, they're death dealers blowing up pubs and shooting teenagers.

I think this is all pretty obvious.

[flip]

Originally Posted by ok, ok,....I get it

so it would appear the irish made their bed......

Not sure if it quite works that way.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by flip

So. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion at hand. We're not debating Michael Collins, we're debating the British occupying another country.

So... the Republicans signed over the northern counties in exchange for their own independence. The North has always had a strong Protestant/Scottish component anyways. Are you suggesting all those people should be forced to leave their homes so N. Ireland can be a homeland once again for Catholic Irish?

[ok, ok,....I get it]

Originally Posted by flip

Not sure if it quite works that way.

why not, if Peter12 is correct, and the Irish signed a treaty...why would it not work that way.......

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by flip

This is the thing. Time makes some conflicts better and some worse. In this case a lot of people have just let it go, the British have been there so long that Catholics and Protestants have been living side by side for too long to just kick out all British/Protestants.

On the other hand some conflicts get worse with time. It appears that this incident is just a flare up and that the long term conflict will not go the way of Israel/Palestine, but who knows.

I agree with you for the most part.

Right now, the only thing holding back real peace is the occupation. If Britain and France can put behind them hundreds of years of warfare and live in peace together, then so can Ireland and England. It's not like England doesn't have Catholics that live in England and get along fine with everyone. France also has Protestant enclaves that are not oppressed. Many people from the Republic of Ireland go to universities in England, or do business there.

The religious aspect is blown way out of proportion. The "Catholics" in the conflict are basically just those who are Irish in their roots, and the "Protestants" are those who are either decendents of British settlers and soldiers, or those who helped them and converted to become Protestants. It's a class war more than anything, and not unlike conflicts you see in other countries that were occupied during colonial times.

Even if people live in relative peace, if you're occupied, then you're second class. You will always have that hanging over your head.

[peter12]

I think there is a reasonable fear on the part of Protestant Loyalists that if the British left there would be substantial Catholic reprisals.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by flip

I did very specifically mention that only loyalists, that I have a problem with. I don't care what nationality you are, as long as you support the country you are living in then that is fine. It is those who support the British occupation of a sovereign nation that bother me.

Canada exists in large part thanks to the United Empire Loyalists, who kept the nation from joining revolutionary America which eventually led to a peaceful independence from Britain decades later. Just food for thought.

[flip]

Originally Posted by peter12

So... the Republicans signed over the northern counties in exchange for their own independence. The North has always had a strong Protestant/Scottish component anyways. Are you suggesting all those people should be forced to leave their homes so N. Ireland can be a homeland once again for Catholic Irish?

No, and I've been saying so for 3 pages. Try reading the whole thread.

From about 10 posts ago:

Obviously at this point in time, like I've already mentioned about 10 times, there is no war and most of the British/Protestants are deeply entrenched in society and if British rule was gone then they'd likely live in harmony.

Not sure how many more times I have to repeat myself.

I don't support the terrorist actions, but there are a lot of angry people because they feel the British are in their territory. The British could have left a long time ago and let Ireland live in peace.

I am well aware that there are thousands upon thousands of Protestants/British in N Ireland. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THIS. They are just people, they didn't occupy Ireland, they just live there. It is the British government and loyalists that I have a problem with. People who think it is their right and has been for all of time to occupy other peoples land because of a mandate from god, or however they choose to justify it.

Little can be done now. Again, I've said this about 5 times now. Petty violence won't help. Only diplomatic action will reunite Ireland.

All I want is for the British government to give N Ireland back to the Republic of Ireland. End of story.

[flip]

Originally Posted by icarus

Canada exists in large part thanks to the United Empire Loyalists, who kept the nation from joining revolutionary America which eventually led to a peaceful independence from Britain decades later. Just food for thought.

I am using the term loyalist liberally here. Like I said earlier take it in context, I'm not here to argue semantics. However that is where I derived the term from and was using it because of that. I'm not saying I hate all loyalists for all time, just in this specific situation, under the circumstances I mentioned. And even then I don't hate them, I just don't think they should continually support the occupation of N Ireland, it should be united with the Republic.

[peter12]

It was never a part of the Republic of Ireland. After the War of Independence, the English signed a treaty with the Irish Republicans and Nationalists.

Northern Ireland CHOSE to recede from the Republic.

[flip]

Originally Posted by peter12

I think there is a reasonable fear on the part of Protestant Loyalists that if the British left there would be substantial Catholic reprisals.

This is true and would be terrible. After all this time they finally get reunited and those morons spend their time exacting 500 year old revenge.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by flip

I know the rapping and pillaging isn't common anymore

It should be: