Fighting in Gaza Strip

[RougeUnderoos]

What major news source was that?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by bcb

Think about it this way: If any country other than Israel had signed a peace agreement with it's neighbor, and that neighbor continually goaded them with small artillery fire, would anybody actually be surprised when said country finally had enough? And more importantly, would the mainstream media be smothering that country with criticism? Unlikely, I say.

Isn't that exactly what Russia was criticized for by the US and UK when it responded to the Georgian attacks in South Ossetia?

Disproportionate use of force I think was the term.

[Thor]

Well one of the big problems is they keep talking about a political conflict, between political ideals. Every single western new organization avoids religion in this conflict like the plague. They are fearful of the word.

While the Arab world, the media, TV series, Movies, all speak quite clearly on the religious war aspect of this and how evil Isarael and jews are. They don't even hide it, but no western media would talk about this fact nor portrai this as a religious conflict.

Israel is tough, and both sides are to blame obviously. But one side keeps agreeing on peace and while doing some stupid things like increasing settlements (pressure from the religious right in Israel with support from Evangelicals in the US), while the other side continues no matter peace/conflict to launch missles, teach their children from speaking age to HATE and FIGHT the dirty 'jews'...

I mean its an imbalance, yes Israel could do some things better, but they are certainly more reasonable and willing to work for peace, while nothing changes in the poor, uneducated slums of Palastine where its a breeding ground for radicalism and suicide bombers.

They must be made fringe by their own people, such is the problem for Lebanon and Hamas. They can't move into a peacful future while these organizations corrupt and abuse a poor, uneducated and fearful populace into jihad against their so called enemy.

But rightly so, this should no longer be called a 'political conflict' and we might start actually getting somewhere in this dialogue.

Religious war is absolutism, no room for negotiation and peace. So if we don't address this, we don't deal with the core problem.

[bcb]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

What major news source was that?

It was on MSNBC.com

[bcb]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Isn't that exactly what Russia was criticized for by the US and UK when it responded to the Georgian attacks in South Ossetia?

Disproportionate use of force I think was the term.

Good point; however, we should remember that there was no actual ceasefire in effect and when Georgia (allegedly) provoked Russia, they didn't have the backing of the left wing media establishment.

[Nage Waza]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Part of the problem is that some people, on both sides of this conflict, have the strange belief that god has chosen this tiny little sliver of land for them alone, and people that don't believe in the same book or god shouldn't live there, and they should be kicked out or killed.

In other words... religion is a cause of the problem.

This has no basis of any fact at all anymore. There is simply a nation with basically a landless people on it's borders, that is perpetuated because the landless people have associated themselves with terrorists.

And as for your point that the people do not believe that non believers shouldn't be living there, that is true for Islam. Jews are perfectly happy to have a mosque, church or whatever next door to them. These are the facts.

[Nage Waza]

One other thing to add, the issue that Israel has with Hamas is pretty much the same that other nations in the region are experiencing. Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and other countries have either been or are going through major internal conflict. The only way some of these countries have dealt with it is to literally kill them all, any one who opposes the government is executed. Israel is like a beacon for these thugs, because they know the western government is soft on people. The first stage is Israel, then Europe, then North America.
Those in this thread that somehow think Israel is to blame, or looking for peace are misinformed. Israel is involved in something that is global, and the Palestinians themselves are going to be pawns for as long as it takes.

[HOZ]

A former communist learns a lesson. Now they are the new fascists!

Have a read! Even former leftists now the measure.
A few days ago, at a checkpoint, I was doing some interviews. It soon became clear to me that the use of the word "terrorist" sounded to each one of my Palestinian interlocutors a capital political and semantic sin. The press has learned this very well: the occupation is the cause of everything, terrorism is called resistance and does not exist per se. Terrorists who kill women and children are called militants, or fighters. An act of terrorism is often "a fire clash", even when only babies and old men are shot inside their cars on a highway. It is also interesting to note that a young shahid is a cause of deep pride for the Palestinian struggle, but if you ask how a child of twelve can be sent to die and why young children are indoctrinated to do such acts, the answer is: "come on, a child can't be a terrorist. How can you call a 12 year old boy a terrorist?"

Have to add this.....#5 on her list of bad media coverage

) Using Palestinian sources to certify events, as if Palestinian sources were the most reliable. I am thinking of Jenin, of the unconfirmed reports that passed to printed pages or TV screens as absolute truth. In contrast, Israeli sources, which are very often reliable, are seen as subservient, prejudiced and unworthy of attention, despite the country's aggressive free and open journalism, and the equally determined criticism of government policies by opposition parties, conscience objectors, commentators and journalists.

[HOZ]

More

A Hamas spokesman appearing on the BBC on the first day of the offensive explained that the Palestinian people had the right to defend itself, having lived under occupation these past sixty years. Let’s ignore for the moment the fact that Israel withdrew all its settlements and all its soldiers from Gaza in 2005. Though you really have to ignore that to understand how the Gazans have been struggling against “occupation”.
Instead, let’s focus on how long the occupation has been going on. From June 1967 until today, the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza, plus residents of the Golan Heights and earlier on, Sinai, lived under Israeli occupation.
But that’s forty-one years. Not sixty years. Sixty years means that the “occupation” refers to the existence of Israel itself. Even under ferocious aerial bombardment, the Hamas regime tottering, its leaders still think that the very existence of Israel is the problem.
Defenders of Israel like to point out that Hamas, unlike the PLO, has never changed its fundamental belief in the need for the destruction of Israel. There are probably more references to the Hamas Charter in pro-Israel publications than in those produced by its own supporters. That charter says “Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it”. That’s not an obscure phrase buried deep inside the document, dug up by scholars. It’s not an after-thought or an amendment. That’s paragraph two of the Hamas charter. And if you think that Hamas doesn’t really mean this, or forgot it, or has changed its views in the twenty years since the charter was written, listen again to the Hamas spokesman when he talks about “sixty years” of occupation.
That’s not a slip of the tongue. That’s a core belief of the Islamists.


And a Canucklehead Socialist..... Glavin

For an outstanding example of the falsifications, misrepresentation and absurd circumlocutions the indecent Canadian left is obliged to practice in order to sustain its irrational hatred of Israel in the context of ongoing events in Gaza, read this. It's all there, in one neat package. It's one-stop shopping: Israel is guilty of slaughter, atrocities, war crimes and massacres, prosecuted according to its own "genocidal logic," and the ultimate blame lies with Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Stephen Harper, Condoleezza Rice, the European Union. . . everyone but Hamas.

[HOZ]

Happy 72 Virgins

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by HOZ

And a Canucklehead Socialist..... Glavin

For an outstanding example of the falsifications, misrepresentation and absurd circumlocutions the indecent Canadian left is obliged to practice in order to sustain its irrational hatred of Israel in the context of ongoing events in Gaza, read this. It's all there, in one neat package. It's one-stop shopping: Israel is guilty of slaughter, atrocities, war crimes and massacres, prosecuted according to its own "genocidal logic," and the ultimate blame lies with Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Stephen Harper, Condoleezza Rice, the European Union. . . everyone but Hamas.

I read that and all I can say is that Pravda would be ashamed to publish such verbal diarrhea. Truly mind-blowing.

[bcb]

As is blatantly clear, Israel will not be cut slack whether they defend themselves or hold fire. The nation must act with its own self interest. As bad as war is, sometimes one must fight fire with fire.

[CaptainCrunch]

At some point, one of the surrounding Muslim nations is going to have to take stewardship of the Gaza Strip. There's no way that the combination of Gaza innocents, Hamas and Israel can exist in this kind of close orbit. I find it tragic that the West Bank has settled down under moderate leadership and Gaza is a train wreck.

One thing that Hamas is probably finding as a positive right now is the number of civilian casualties at this point. Hamas is a extremist group and a terrorist group, but they're also a political animal, and the more woman and children that die, the better for them.

[transplant99]

One group has given up land in order to try and attain some sort of resolution...the other has made it's declared mission in life to eradicate all Jews and ended a ceasefire just a few days ago to start that process.

• Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant states the following: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslem).

Now...which one is far more to blame?

[Nage Waza]

I don't find it surprising that those that posted falsifications about Israel do not respond when their points are questioned. This is pretty typical, they are quick to lob false accusations at Israel and then dissapear when questioned. Where were their posts when all the rockets were being fired at Israel?

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

At some point, one of the surrounding Muslim nations is going to have to take stewardship of the Gaza Strip. There's no way that the combination of Gaza innocents, Hamas and Israel can exist in this kind of close orbit. I find it tragic that the West Bank has settled down under moderate leadership and Gaza is a train wreck.

Egypt or bust!

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Egypt or bust!

Hamas is an offshoot of Egypt's own Muslim Brotherhood, so I doubt Egypt will ever take them back.

Israel has actually tried to hand it over to Egypt a few times. The refusal to take responsibility for Gaza was a major reason for Egypt sealing their border with Gaza.

Meanwhile Egyptians are rioting on the streets about the Jewish occupation of an Arab land. I guess it's easier to use Palestinians as cannon fodder than actually care for them.

[jammies]

Why bother arguing? You've obviously already made up your minds about the issue: Israel is justified no matter what it does. They can go right ahead and kill hundreds of civilians with bombs because that is "unfortunate collateral damage". After all, in war, people die - too bad, so sad.

Never mind that as recently as 2006 the Israelis tried the same tactics against Hezbollah in Lebanon as they are trying now in the Gaza, and failed miserably - incidentally destroying billions of dollars worth of Lebanese infrastructure and killing over a thousand non-combatant civilians. Further, it doesn't matter that the reason both Hezbollah and Hamas exist as viable terrorist organizations is that the PLO was destroyed as a military force by the first incursion into Lebanon in the 80's - effectively trading one enemy for two that sprung into the power vacuum created. No, the only thing that matters is that Israel goes to war every few years and kills craploads of Arabs, because after 60 years of trying, victory must surely be just around the corner!

What truly amazes me is that the propaganda of the Arabs is seen rightly for what it is - insincere justification of atrocities - and yet the propaganda of the Israelis is not ever questioned. The right to self-defence must be proportionate; if I punch you in the head, you are not justified in burning down my house, killing my family, and then building yourself a new mansion where my house used to be. Yet it's somehow OK for Israel to hold onto occupied land for decades on end, to blow up bridges and buildings that have no military value whatsoever, and to create massive ghettoes for their enemies with no industry, no arable land, no water, and walls all around and dividing them.

Not only are these things wrong, they are STUPID - they turn innocents into enemies and justify the crimes of terrorists to those who have been terrorized themselves. Hamas wouldn't last one day if the population at large wasn't living in what are essentially vast prison camps with no way out other than violence - they are successful because conditions are so poor that death seems preferable to life.

Oh well, who cares - they can keep on killing each other over there and we can limit ourselves to being cheerleaders for our "side". Why not another 60 years of the terrorism-reprisals-terrorism-WAR! cycle - so far the Israelis are way ahead on the body count, so we can look forward to "winning" for decades to come!

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by jammies

What truly amazes me is that the propaganda of the Arabs is seen rightly for what it is - insincere justification of atrocities - and yet the propaganda of the Israelis is not ever questioned. The right to self-defence must be proportionate; if I punch you in the head, you are not justified in burning down my house, killing my family, and then building yourself a new mansion where my house used to be. Yet it's somehow OK for Israel to hold onto occupied land for decades on end, to blow up bridges and buildings that have no military value whatsoever, and to create massive ghettoes for their enemies with no industry, no arable land, no water, and walls all around and dividing them.

Using your theory Calgary should just play their fourth line when playing the Oilers tomorrow. No! In war as in hockey you give them everything you got. You secure the victory. Hamas' aim is to kill Israelites and Israel's aim is to kill Hamas. There's your equality!

[blankall]

For anybody curious about the actual affect of these Qassam rockets:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f031s79COpw...feature=related

Keep in mind that since these rockets are crudely made a lot of the causualties actually come from the resulting shrapnel.

Here is the warning system Israel uses to mitigate its casualties:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRz3nHwgjHY

Hamas does not mitigate its casualties. Here is a video of Hamas fighters launching rockets from a school in the hope that Israel will retaliate on the site and create casualties:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elyXQ6g-TJs