Killer living wage - please, tax me more Calgary

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by Dion

Not to mention that a large increase would cause a lot of small businesses to close shop.

To hell with those greedy corporations then - they're keeping the little guy down. Screw them. Worker's rights!
$0.00/hr is better than $8.40/hr

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Dion

Not to mention that a large increase would cause a lot of small businesses to close shop.

Yeah, that too. Contrary to popular opinion, increasing the rate of minimum wage isn't always a good idea.

If you're a small business, and you can afford to pay 2 people $18/h combined, it doesn't mean you'll be able to afford $27/h combined. Thats almost a 1/3 increase.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Phaneuf3

To hell with those greedy corporations then - they're keeping the little guy down. Screw them. Worker's rights!
$0.00/hr is better than $8.40/hr

Sarcasm or not.....there are a lot of opportunities in Calgary right now with starting wages above $13/h.

The only thing a $13/h baseline would do is screw over the small-town business in Pincher Creek, Alberta because they're going to close up shop rather than pay their people almost double more in salary.

They can compete with Wal-mart at $8/h.....but they can't compete with Walmart at $13/h.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by Azure

Sarcasm or not.....there are a lot of opportunities in Calgary right now with starting wages above $13/h.

The only thing a $13/h baseline would do is screw over the small-town business in Pincher Creek, Alberta because they're going to close up shop rather than pay their people almost double more in salary.

They can compete with Wal-mart at $8/h.....but they can't compete with Walmart at $13/h.

Right now it is only the City of Calgary that is suggesting it. It would apply to their own employees and businesses that do busines with the city.

I don't think the PC's have any plans of taking the province down this road. In fact the government monitors this and I found a great document while researching this.
(See I can give our provinicial government credit.... when it's due. )

http://employment.alberta.ca/documents/LMI/LMI-WSI_minwageprofile.pdf

Couple excerpts:

Most of Alberta's employees earned more than minimum wage. The province had 19,740 minimum wage earners, which made up 1.3% of all employees, the lowest percentage among Canadian provinces. This analysis was based on 1,467,260 Alberta employees of organizations, excludes 508,178 individuals who were self-employed, unpaid family workers or who worked more than 44 hours per week. (See Figure 4)

In Alberta, the minimum wage earner profile was as follows from April 2007 to March 2008.
�� aged 15-19 years
�� part-time work
�� private sector work
�� permanent employment
�� non-union employee
�� less than one year of job experience
�� work in the Accommodation and Food Services industry
�� work in a Sales and Service occupations n.e.c.3
�� some high school education
�� female

[SebC]

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by SebC

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

Yup.

Private employers ante up for the source deductions so it costs them more beyond the higher wage. They really have two choices; lay people off or pass the costs along to their customers by increasing prices of the product or service.

If everyone is raising costs of products and services the cost of living goes up.... so then what we up the living wage again.... vicious circle.

In the case of municipalities; like Calgary.... they raise our taxes....

[Azure]

Originally Posted by SebC

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

And a jump like this would skyrocket unemployment rates.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Azure

And a jump like this would skyrocket unemployment rates.

Small business owners would be closing shops sending people to the unemployment line. That or the ones that stayed open would jack up the prices of their services making the consumer pay big time.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by SebC

I hope all you socialists who support this realize that minimum wage creates unemployment. Sad but true... basic economics.

I'm not sure of the specific facts of this case (I'm American educated and haven't lived in Canada for years) but employment isn't the be all and end all of standard of living. There are a lot of people that are fully employed and live in perpetual poverty. In Idaho there are tons of people like that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Weiser Wonder

I'm not sure of the specific facts of this case (I'm American educated and haven't lived in Canada for years) but employment isn't the be all and end all of standard of living. There are a lot of people that are fully employed and live in perpetual poverty. In Idaho there are tons of people like that.

The only thing worse than that is to be unemployed and live in poverty.

[Weiser Wonder]

Originally Posted by Azure

The only thing worse than that is to be unemployed and live in poverty.

Good thing those aren't the only options.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by First Lady

Yup.

Private employers ante up for the source deductions so it costs them more beyond the higher wage. They really have two choices; lay people off or pass the costs along to their customers by increasing prices of the product or service.

If everyone is raising costs of products and services the cost of living goes up.... so then what we up the living wage again.... vicious circle.

In the case of municipalities; like Calgary.... they raise our taxes....

So I guess in your world only 90% of the people can afford to the basic needs to live?

A wonderful cycle, isn't it?

Don't start crying wolf for businesses here now, there are plenty of large businesses which could afford to have their staffing costs double and barely blink and eye. Hell, I work for one (and no it is not an oil company and yes I have seen the financials).

[First Lady]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So I guess in your world only 90% of the people can afford to the basic needs to live?

We already have a myriad of support programs and assistance available to the underemployed.

We also have programs for those who are, for what ever reason unable to support themselves (AISH); which is sadly lacking IMO. But that is provinicial and another can of worms.

Wage should be based on education, experience and performance. Want to make a better wage; increase any of those and you will.

I would sooner see tax $ going to programs to help people "improve" their own education, experience, etc. Rather than blanket "cure all" raises.

A wonderful cycle, isn't it?

Don't start crying wolf for businesses here now, there are plenty of large businesses which could afford to have their staffing costs double and barely blink and eye. Hell, I work for one (and no it is not an oil company and yes I have seen the financials).

I agree the larger ones could like absorb it. And if their employees are worth $13.25 an hour they will pay it.

Smaller businesses though; who are a huge employer in Alberta, have smaller margins.

I have done the calculation of the difference between the minimum wage of $8.40 and the living wage of $13.25.

On the employee side; while their gross pay goes up 57% their take home pay goes up 45%. Still a very healthy increase.

For the employer it means a 130% increase to the source deduction cost.

As I mentioned, a lot of small employers will have to lay people off when hit with hikes like that...

... but this is about the City doing this with our money.... and of course the next step is forcing everyone else to do it.

[Vulcan]

As others have said this isn't an increase in the minimum wage so it won't effect most small business. What it does is put a floor of the wage scale that companies doing business for the city have. Say if company A pays it's workers $8/hr while company B pays it's workers $13/ hr. Company A can make a lower bid on a contract and win the contract. The city is saying they don't want to a part of labour usury. It may not be of practicable use in good times but in a recession where greedy employers can take advantage of the more desperate, it will be the moral thing to do.

I have some sympathy for business but some greedy employers have to realize that if they dont' pay a living wage, who's going to buy their product. I like to see a happy medium between business and labour where they can both win but around here the attitude seems to be to screw the lower guy on the totem pole and just tell him to suck it up.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

The weird thing about this is the city has no business in the discussion.

We pay a lot of money and elect folk at a provincial and federal level to manage our social policy.

They city wouldn't need so many tax hikes if they quit wading into areas that are not their place.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by hulkrogan

Joe Downtown Worker who makes 600% of minimum wage shouldn't expect to go from $51/hour to $79.50/hour and you shouldn't expect to get an increase in pay either.

$51 an hour would be nice....

Perhaps I'm getting this confused with minimum wage. If it somewhat related to minimum wage, and the cost of doing business just went up, I can justify a salary increase request to match the percentage of what that cost went up by.

If minimum wage goes up, I will always be asking my average hourly rate to be boosted up comparatively. If not, then you're making closer to minimum wage than you were the previous day with no real justification as to why that is. It's a fair request.

[ken0042]

I guess I don't see my salary as a percentage over minimum wage. I see minimum wage as law that states you cannot pay a person less than that; not a benchmark to base all other wages upon.

Back when I used to work jobs that were near minimum wage I used to see it and couldn't understand it. Here's an example. MW is $5/hr. Joe makes $5.50/hr. MW goes up to $6/hr, and so does Joe's wage.

Should Joe be happy to be making more money, or mad that he is now "back down" to minimum wage. Or even better, Joe's boss tells him he will now make $6.25/hr. He now has picked up a 13% raise, but is only 25¢ over MW as opposed to 50¢.

[Vulcan]

"If nothing else the left has the knack for picking the perfect adjective", when describing the "living wage".

The right doesn't do a bad job of this either.
Remember the "Right to Work" slogan that big business was throwing around at one time. What it really was, was an attempt to break unions and was the right to work for less.

[DementedReality]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I have some sympathy for business but some greedy employers have to realize that if they dont' pay a living wage, who's going to buy their product. I like to see a happy medium between business and labour where they can both win but around here the attitude seems to be to screw the lower guy on the totem pole and just tell him to suck it up.

your wage is a direct reflection of how much $$$ you can make the company.

if you can articule that you earn the company $1,000,000 per year and that money would not be coming in if you left the firm, I guarantee you could earn 6 figures.

if you cant articulate how much money you are worth, you will get whatever you are offered and it probably will be under $20.00 per hour.

it simple. you want to make $$$ for your bank, learn how to make $$$ for your company and you will get paid. guaranteed.

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I guess I don't see my salary as a percentage over minimum wage. I see minimum wage as law that states you cannot pay a person less than that; not a benchmark to base all other wages upon.

Back when I used to work jobs that were near minimum wage I used to see it and couldn't understand it. Here's an example. MW is $5/hr. Joe makes $5.50/hr. MW goes up to $6/hr, and so does Joe's wage.

Should Joe be happy to be making more money, or mad that he is now "back down" to minimum wage. Or even better, Joe's boss tells him he will now make $6.25/hr. He now has picked up a 13% raise, but is only 25¢ over MW as opposed to 50¢.

From your example, the people that would get screwed are the people that are doing a more demanding job and are already making $6/hour. Minimum wage gets raised to $6/hr but they don't see an increase. Now they're doing a tougher job than Joe for the same wage.

Of course, the differences become more dramatic when you're talking about a $5 jump or something like that.