UofA makes a move ot block god from graduation

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

I guess some people have nothing better to do.

Again, this "have nothing better to do". I hope you don't watch hockey games when you could be out unloading vans for the food bank.

What any of us do in our spare time is of no concern of yours. If I were to choose to use my spare time to write a letter regarding 'God' being mentioned in a convocation speech, what right do you have to tell me that that is a waste of time compared to watching a football game, reading a Stephen King novel, playing Halo, etc, etc, etc.

And, yes, to some people it DOES matter. It obviously doesn't matter to you, it probably doesn't matter to 99.9% of the population. But to the .1% that it does matter to, why do you begrudge them that? I read threads here about "what bugs you" and read things that to me are 1000% innocuous and wonder why people are so sensitive to such things. However, I don't begrudge them their feelings.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by evman150

It's antiscience at its finest and I would argue it contributes to the dangerous credulity present in our society, and all the dangerous manifestations of that credulity (religion, pseudo-science et al).

Anti-science? Harry Potter? Is that what you are talking about?

It's fiction. The author doesn't believe it's true and isn't shilling any belief system or being anti-science any more than Dr.Seuss or James Joyce.

I'd say those books are "pro-science", since they inspired millions of kids to read more.

[Flash]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Again, this "have nothing better to do". I hope you don't watch hockey games when you could be out unloading vans for the food bank.

What any of us do in our spare time is of no concern of yours. If I were to choose to use my spare time to write a letter regarding 'God' being mentioned in a convocation speech, what right do you have to tell me that that is a waste of time compared to watching a football game, reading a Stephen King novel, playing Halo, etc, etc, etc.

And, yes, to some people it DOES matter. It obviously doesn't matter to you, it probably doesn't matter to 99.9% of the population. But to the .1% that it does matter to, why do you begrudge them that? I read threads here about "what bugs you" and read things that to me are 1000% innocuous and wonder why people are so sensitive to such things. However, I don't begrudge them their feelings.

What I don't get is why something needs to be changed to suit that .1% of the population when the other 99.9% are fine with it the way it is.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Flash

What I don't get is why something needs to be changed to suit that .1% of the population when the other 99.9% are fine with it the way it is.

A-HA!!!! So it *DOES* matter to you!!! I'm willing to bet it is the same with everyone that has posted here. They claim that they don't care and it doesn't matter to them... but really it does. You just said here that it DOES matter to you because you are happier leaving it the way that it is.

[Flash]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

A-HA!!!! So it *DOES* matter to you!!! I'm willing to bet it is the same with everyone that has posted here. They claim that they don't care and it doesn't matter to them... but really it does. You just said here that it DOES matter to you because you are happier leaving it the way that it is.

Well I've openly admitted to believing in God, so yeah, I'd rather it be left as it is...I've never actually said that it didn't matter to me. I don't find it offensive so I don't think it should be changed. To those who don't believe in God (or who don't believe in the Christian God), I don't understand why it's so offensive. It's not like it's being shoved down their throats like a person coming door-to-door. If I'm listening to someone speak, I don't get offended if they don't mention God, nor do I get offended if they mention their own God (by whatever name they choose to call Him)...if people don't get offended by no mention or by mention under another name, why do some people get offended simply by hearing "God" in a speech?

And as you said, it's for the .1% who it offends who things are changed for. Don't the other 99.9% count?

[Azure]

I don't think whether you believe in God or not should be making a difference here.

How long has this been part of the graduation?

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

I don't think whether you believe in God or not should be making a difference here.

How long has this been part of the graduation?

Are you for or against flying the Confederate flag above government buildings in Georgia?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Are you for or against flying the Confederate flag above government buildings in Georgia?

Honestly, I don't care.

Flying a flag means absolutely nothing.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

What I find incredibly funny is, this UofA group of Athiests want to see god taken out from their graduation convocation, the UofA Christian groups agree, institutions UofC and UofT have already made a push to change it. All sides seem to agree.

Except for Calgarypuck.com

Sort of funny how things work.

(And I don't see anything about banning Merry Christmas or Haloween or Harry Potter from this group, that sort of stuff is pretty radical. University groups - if the critics of them here even went to university - tend to be pretty open minded, many religious people attend the Athiests meetings and outings when many non-religious people or other religious people do attend Christian group's on campus events and they tend to work pretty close together and have a healthy respect for each others opinions. And again, the only people that seem to be annoyed and have harsh opinions here is, Calgarypuck.com)

Hey, if all involved agree, change it! I certainly wouldn't be offended by that change (of course it doesn't involve me at all, but I'm sure there's something out there that does that relates). My concern is what motivates someone to even start the process.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Are you for or against flying the Confederate flag above government buildings in Georgia?

You mean South Carolina?

Are you comparing the plight of atheists to that of black Americans 5 generations removed from slavery?

Are you comparing the Confederate flag to the word 'God' in offensiveness?

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Hey, if all involved agree, change it! I certainly wouldn't be offended by that change (of course it doesn't involve me at all, but I'm sure there's something out there that does that relates). My concern is what motivates someone to even start the process.

Quite honestly, beats the hell out of me. I hear it so often I just get used to it after a while.

And yeah, it seems like its 1% that want it changed and the rest of the 99% majority say sure, change it. Talking to my friends at UofA's campus for christ, they have no problem with the change.

Anyways that enough of this thread for me, I've gotten hammered on enough skill points for this thread as it is and don't want to drop any more. The issue wasn't supposed to be a big deal, and a show of tolerance between 2 sides so I don't know how it turned to this.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Anti-science? Harry Potter? Is that what you are talking about?

It's fiction. The author doesn't believe it's true and isn't shilling any belief system or being anti-science any more than Dr.Seuss or James Joyce.

I'd say those books are "pro-science", since they inspired millions of kids to read more.

Your last point has some substance, but I don't think it makes them "pro-science". It's not pro-science if it makes them read more books like Harry Potter. If all you read is Harry Potter, you are achieving little more than not reading at all (from an intellectual non-hedonistic standpoint).

Many children's books, movies and programming contribute to societal credulity. You can toss them off as fiction, but Harry Potter is one step removed from CS Lewis. It's just my opinion, but I think these things permeate deeper than most think (especially since they're taken in during childhood, when a human is most impressionable).

It's long been my opinion that the single greatest children's book/show/movie is "Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?". This is a program that encourages kids to think critically, to look behind the curtain, to not take things at face value. It's a show that was only on for a couple of seasons and only a couple dozen episodes around 1970, but 40 years later the short-lived program stands the test of time as the single greatest entity created for children (in my opinion of course, but obviously to still be syndicated it must have some appeal).

All I am saying is we need far more Scooby Doo in our world and less witches, gods and demons.

(And yes I realize I am advocating a show with a talking dog).

[peter12]

no message.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by evman150

Your last point has some substance, but I don't think it makes them "pro-science". It's not pro-science if it makes them read more books like Harry Potter. If all you read is Harry Potter, you are achieving little more than not reading at all (from an intellectual non-hedonistic standpoint).

Many children's books, movies and programming contribute to societal credulity. You can toss them off as fiction, but Harry Potter is one step removed from CS Lewis. It's just my opinion, but I think these things permeate deeper than most think (especially since they're taken in during childhood, when a human is most impressionable).

The Harry Potter series got more kids reading books -- many kids who didn't like reading books -- than anything else in the last 40 years. When a kid learns that book-learnin' is fun, well then book learnin' is fun, and they read more of everything.

"If all they read is Harry Potter..." is not reality.

JK Rowling is contributing to "societal credulity" like Robert Zemeckis contributed to the belief in a time-travelling De Lorean.

I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that a lot of astronomers and fancy scientists with an alphabet following their name are big fans of science fiction. It's the same thing.

[photon]

Harry Potter != science fiction. If science fiction was a lot more popular then I think that would be a good thing for society and promote better thinking and education.

What we need is a Harry Potter level craze for a kids science fiction book!

I can see evman's point, but I liked Harry Potter so I'm torn. As a parent I don't think I'm going to stop my kid from reading HP, but I'm going to make sure that they read other things and that they're going to have the skills to look at the world critically and skeptically.

Anyway on the topic of the thread..

Society changes over time. As has been pointed out, God wasn't always in the anthem. In the US, God being on the money wasn't until the 50's I think. Someone at some point thought those were good ideas and started the ball rolling on making changes.

This is the same thing, society is changing. We're more pluralistic, and disbelief is increasing. And we're more sensitive to others' beliefs and want to be accepting. But often atheism is either being ignored (at best) or being actively marginalized (at worst). Someone has to raise the point to effect change.

Also put yourself in the shoes of an atheist. Many are closet atheists because their families and communities wouldn't accept them if they knew the truth. Or many "come out" and get excommunicated from their families, or become the black sheep to keep the kids away from. Don't laugh, it happens all the time.

So you're this person, you're celebrating the greatest accomplishment of your life to date, and you're told to use it for the glory of God... I can see why that might make some sad.

But it's not just the reference to God.. as I said society is becoming more pluralistic and efforts are often made to recognize and respect many religions, but the lack of a religion is usually completely ignored.. hopefully not intentionally (though sometimes it is), but probably just because no one thought to consider them. It's that lack of consideration that often rubs atheists the wrong way, and is part of the recent movement to try and raise awareness of atheism.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by photon

But it's not just the reference to God.. as I said society is becoming more pluralistic and efforts are often made to recognize and respect many religions, but the lack of a religion is usually completely ignored.. hopefully not intentionally (though sometimes it is), but probably just because no one thought to consider them. It's that lack of consideration that often rubs atheists the wrong way, and is part of the recent movement to try and raise awareness of atheism.

OK, this is the second time this has been mentioned in this thread and I just don't get it.

Atheists want their absence of belief acknowledged in ceremonies? Isn't that kind of like saying I want to be considered in feminist issues because I'm not a woman?

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

By the same logic, nihilists should be recognized in all situations for not believing in whatever is being recognized.

[photon]

Your analogy is flawed, it would make sense if this was a religious ceremony (feminist issues, not a woman, non-religious ceremony, not religious).

Lets use your analogy. What if the graduation ceremony said to the glory of women and the honour of your country? Seems silly and possibly offensive to those who aren't women.

There's a difference between sex and religion/non-religion though, one being something one is, the other being something one thinks.

So what if it was "to the glory of liberalism or conservatism"?

This is a small potatoes example of how atheism is ignored or even attacked, but then again it's also small enough to effect change without making it into a supreme court case.

EDIT: If this was a Muslim or some other group making this request (if the speech was more overtly Christian let's say) the discussion would be around the merits of the request itself, not about the merit of asking.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by photon

Harry Potter != science fiction.

True.

I didn't mean to say that fantasy(including Harry Potter) is the same thing as sci-fic, just that people read all sorts of crazy stuff (sci-fi included) and it doesn't mean what they read is "anti-science".

Originally Posted by photon

If science fiction was a lot more popular then I think that would be a good thing for society and promote better thinking and education.

What we need is a Harry Potter level craze for a kids science fiction book!

For sure. A "craze" on the Harry Potter level is good for all the tykes. The genre doesn't really matter.

Unless it's the bible.

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

True.

I didn't mean to say that fantasy(including Harry Potter) is the same thing as sci-fic, just that people read all sorts of crazy stuff (sci-fi included) and it doesn't mean what they read is "anti-science".

True, though I do appreciate evman's point and I'd probably agree that the majority of what most people look at (TV being worse than reading) does promote a non-scientific way of thinking.. Not overtly anti-scientific, but just a magical way of thinking as opposed to a rational way.

Sci-fi is always at the bottom of the pile for popular fiction.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by photon

True, though I do appreciate evman's point and I'd probably agree that the majority of what most people look at (TV being worse than reading) does promote a non-scientific way of thinking.. Not overtly anti-scientific, but just a magical way of thinking as opposed to a rational way.

Sci-fi is always at the bottom of the pile for popular fiction.

I'd say a lot of this comes from people reading as a "release" from the stresses of everyday life. I have to admit, when I was a kid I thought reading was stupid and boring, until I started reading the Hobbit. The way my imagination was creating a movie in my head based on what I was reading about ridiculous characters and a magical, unrealistic storyline, was just incredible, and pretty soon I couldn't wait to come home and start the next chapter. It never made me think, 'what if this could all be real?, what if sicence as we know it is wrong'. It was just a fun read, to escape from the real world for awhile.