Who is the greatest of all time?

[yahoo]

Originally Posted by foofighter15

Wow this is hysterical. I was having this conversation with a group of huge hockey fans and we were split down the middle, and the discussion got so intense we had to stop it before two guys fought. (Canuck fans)
Anyway, for the record, I'm on the Gretzky side

Silly Canuck fans, I once had to convince one that Gretzky played for the Oilers, he was only 25 but geeeez...

[Jables16]

I can't believe no one even brings up Mario Lemieux in this discussion. Obviously Gretzky's stats are untouchable but as far as skill as a player goes Lemieux is in the same class. If he had protection in Pittsburgh the way Gretzky did in Edmonton and didn't face so many other health issues there wouldn't be such a disparity between the two statistically. I've got no problem with Gretzky being regarded as the greatest player of all time since he clearly has the resume to make it a legitimate claim but in my eyes Mario will always be the man.

[Jables16]

Sorry, missed the Lemieux talk on the second page. Guess I jumped the gun a bit when it was nothing but non-stop Gretzky on the first page.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by habernac

you can't say Gretzky's era had subpar players without mentioning the fact that the 68 expansion brought a ton of sub par players with it as well.

I'll still take Gretzky. As for the "Lemieux was better" argument. no, he wasn't. He didn't put up the numbers. Gretzky played well and was also durable. It isn't his fault Lemieux had injury troubles.

Or that Lemieux played for one of the weakest teams in the league.

That aside, isn't Gretzky's #99 retired right across the league? That should speak volumes.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by redforever

Or that Lemieux played for one of the weakest teams in the league.

That aside, isn't Gretzky's #99 retired right across the league? That should speak volumes.

I think a few teams have retired it offiially but i think its just unofficlially retired as no one else dares wear it

[getbak]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I think a few teams have retired it offiially but i think its just unofficlially retired as no one else dares wear it

No, it was officially retired league-wide.

I think only the teams he actually played for had a ceremony and hung it from the rafters (I think Phoenix has it hanging up too).

[Coach]

Originally Posted by getbak

No, it was officially retired league-wide.

I think only the teams he actually played for had a ceremony and hung it from the rafters (I think Phoenix has it hanging up too).

o ok i stand corrected

[Flames Addict]

Gretzky.

[disco_inferno]

Originally Posted by foofighter15

Wow this is hysterical. I was having this conversation with a group of huge hockey fans and we were split down the middle, and the discussion got so intense we had to stop it before two guys fought. (Canuck fans)
Anyway, for the record, I'm on the Gretzky side

they couldn't pick between daniel and henrik?

FTR:

I pick 99 too. Way to dominant.

[Jetsfan]

If your referring to hockey....Gretzky.

Otherwise, its the Honky Tonk Man!

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Jetsfan

Otherwise, its the Honky Tonk Man!

He breaks the young girls' hearts and the old ladies' pacemakers.

[Rifleman]

Those people that mention the league being watered down, talent being siphoned off, expansion, etc. also have to take into account that would also mean said player would now be playing with LESS skilled players.

Also consider this:

In 1970-1971, Bobby Orr was second in points in the NHL with 139 pts, only 13 behind 1st place Phil Esposito. The second leading defenseman in terms of points? J.C. Trembley, with the Montreal Canadiens, with 63 pts. Bobby Orr more than DOUBLED the next best defenseman's points. And this is without mentioning the other intangibles Orr brought to the game.

Orr continued his dominance throughout his career, winning the defenseman scoring title while doubling or tripling his peers.

It's hard to make a definite call as to who was the best EVER between Gretzky and Orr. Gretzky has the points, and the longevity to back it up, but nowhere in Gretzky's career did he double or triple the next best player's stats at his position.

But as to who was more heads and shoulders above his peers, the choice is pretty obvious.

[albertGQ]

Originally Posted by getbak

No, it was officially retired league-wide.

I think only the teams he actually played for had a ceremony and hung it from the rafters (I think Phoenix has it hanging up too).

I don't think St.Louis had a ceremony for him

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Estevan

Watch the top ten video's of Orr and Gretz and then tell me who appears in control of the situation. Orr is gold ... Gretzky is gold2

Orr was a fantastic player, he revolutionized the offensive defense-man but Gretzky destroyed every record in the game.

For every top ten video's of Bobby Orr out there, Gretzky has 10 of them!

I was a Bruins fan growing up and loved Bobby but fact is he was mostly a 4th forward on very good team that loved to pile up the goals, Gretzky was the reason the Oilers piled up the goals.

If Bobby was that good nobody would be wearing #4 in the league.

[simonsays]

Personally I say Gretz. I didn't have the opportunity to see Orr, so I while I can't say for certain who of those two was better, I respect the Orr votes. I can only judge based on what I've seen from actual games and not highlight reels. And while I also respect Lemieuxs talent to hell and back, he just didn't have the longevity that's required to be the best ever (and Orr didn't either in my mind).

Gretz career = 1.92 ppg over 1487 games for 2857 points and 894 goals.
Mario career = 1.88 ppg over 915 games for 1723 points and 690 goals.

[jammies]

Lemieux was more physically skilled than Gretzky, but Gretzky was still the better player, due entirely to his ability to predict exactly what the other 11 players on the ice would do around him. He would see the opportunities open up in his mind before they ever happened on the ice. Great players usually get the occasional glimpse with such vision, Gretzky had it every single shift.

Orr was also (from what I've seen) more skilled than Gretzky or Lemieux, and he also played like he was a couple steps ahead of everyone else on the ice. Is there anyone that wouldn't rather have a team with 5 Orrs on the ice rather than 5 Gretzkys? After all, Gretzky would have made a poor defencemen but Orr would have still been dominant at forward. That being said, longevity counts for something and Orr comes up very short there - if you were drafting each player knowing the future, I'd have to pick Gretzky over Orr just on that quality alone.

Roy? Please. The only person I would have thought that counted Roy as a legitimate best ever player would be Roy himself.

[BigRed]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

22, but don't hold it against me.

I really do believe a healthy Lemieux would have made these conversations a lot less in Gretzky's favour.

I'm on board with this, and I'm 37 - a season ticket holder through Gretzky's best days with the Oilers when he tore the Flames apart 8 times a year plus playoffs.

Gretzky was the headiest player of all time -- an intuitive hockey genius who changed the game; but for pure skill, hands and creativity, nobody touches Mario, IMHO. Had he had the same general health as Gretzky over his career -- and had the chance to play with other all-time great players, which, with the exception of maybe three or four years, Mario didn't -- I think Gretzky's records could easily have been threatened.

As it stands, those of us old enough to watch hockey from 1985-95 were ridiculously spoiled to watch these two talents at the same time.

[redforever]

Originally Posted by BigRed

I'm on board with this, and I'm 37 - a season ticket holder through Gretzky's best days with the Oilers when he tore the Flames apart 8 times a year plus playoffs.

Gretzky was the headiest player of all time -- an intuitive hockey genius who changed the game; but for pure skill, hands and creativity, nobody touches Mario, IMHO. Had he had the same general health as Gretzky over his career -- and had the chance to play with other all-time great players, which, with the exception of maybe three or four years, Mario didn't -- I think Gretzky's records could easily have been threatened.

As it stands, those of us old enough to watch hockey from 1985-95 were ridiculously spoiled to watch these two talents at the same time.

1. I will agree, Mario had the better hands

2. And yup, we were spoiled, the magic goal here is at the 2:45 mark, Gretzky knew who had the hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS9BwliAJus

Edit: By the way, if you watch to the end of the clip, you should recognize someone on the bench.

[redforever]

ok if u factor in lemieux and orrs injuries and the fact that they still kicked ass the top 10 looks like this:
1: Bobby Orr
2:Mario Lemieux
3:wayne Gretzky
4:Raymond Bourque
5:Paul Coffey
6:Gordie Howe
7:Steve Yzerman
8:Joe Sakic
9:Bobby Hull
10:Guy Lafleur

You cant include messier because gretzky made him. You cant inclue the rocket no disrespect he played on the greatest dynasty ever and had help. Guy Lafluer is there because he played on a good dynasty but had less help

I read through some of the comments of that video clip with Gretzky and Lemieux in the 1987 Canada Cup and found the list I posted above, pretty interesting analysis.

[CroFlames]

Well the Oilers thread turned into a GOAT discussion so I did a quick search on the FOI forum. Some interesting discussion here (and some lifetime suspensions LoL).

For me, the GOAT revolves around Orr, Gretz and Mario. Orr did things that no one else could do, and the only one who came close was Lidstrom, but he was still miles away.

It's the same case with Wayne, but he had all those superstars around him, and he played in an era when goalies didn't know how to goalie. It begs the question, if Mario had the same type of team around him, surely he would have had 90+ goal seasons and 212+ point seasons.

I have a hard time really saying definitively who the GOAT is, but one thing is for sure. It annoys me when people say, Oh it's Wayne and there's absolutely no discussion. It's not even close. There is a lot of nuance around anointing the best over different eras.

I'm leaning towards Orr.