Gay Penguins discovered in aquarium

[transplant99]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 29 2004, 04:11 AM
Okay, so we won't discuss this like adults. :darnkids: I'll pray for you guys. :innocent:

Pray for what??

To be just like you and what you think is right?

Please don't.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 29 2004, 08:11 AM
Okay, so we won't discuss this like adults. :darnkids: I'll pray for you guys. :innocent:

Once you accept the fact that people can be born homosexuals - we can discuss this like adults.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Dec 29 2004, 12:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Dec 29 2004, 12:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Dec 29 2004, 08:11 AM
Okay, so we won't discuss this like adults. :darnkids: I'll pray for you guys. :innocent:

Once you accept the fact that people can be born homosexuals - we can discuss this like adults.[/b][/quote]
In other words . . . "Agree that I'm right and then we'll talk." No, I don't believe anyone is born a homosexual. To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence people are born homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned it's a learned behavior. We disagree on that. So what.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 30 2004, 12:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 30 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Once you accept the fact that people can be born homosexuals - we can discuss this like adults.

In other words . . . "Agree that I'm right and then we'll talk." No, I don't believe anyone is born a homosexual. To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence people are born homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned it's a learned behavior. We disagree on that. So what. [/b][/quote]
When did you learn to be heterosexual?

[stuckinchuck]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 30 2004, 12:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 30 2004, 12:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Once you accept the fact that people can be born homosexuals - we can discuss this like adults.

In other words . . . "Agree that I'm right and then we'll talk." No, I don't believe anyone is born a homosexual. To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence people are born homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned it's a learned behavior. We disagree on that. So what. [/b][/quote]
Why would anyone choose to be ridiculed by the rest of society? That's a pretty ridiculous argument if i've ever seen one.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 30 2004, 01:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 30 2004, 01:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Once you accept the fact that people can be born homosexuals - we can discuss this like adults.

In other words . . . "Agree that I'm right and then we'll talk." No, I don't believe anyone is born a homosexual. To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence people are born homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned it's a learned behavior. We disagree on that. So what. [/b][/quote]
Are you serious? No empirical evidence? You do know that they've isolated a gene which causes homosexual behaviour. They brought it back from saying it's the outright cause of being gay, but it's certainly a big part. Besides did you have to learn to be straight? Or how about what your attracted to? Hair color, eye color, heck WEIGHT. Do you choose what you are attracted to? Of course it's not learned behaviour. If you say it is, then somehow you learned everything you are attracted to and aren't, and somehow learned to be straight. Thats' simply not true.

There are people raised by gay people that are straight themselves just as there are gay people raised by straight people. IN fact lots of straight families have had a hard time learning one of their offspring were gay, even to the point of excluding them. So where would they have ever LEARNED to be gay? This is easily one the stupidest things I've heard you say Sammie. The sky is blue, objects fall towards the earth, and people are born gay. Get over it, you are wrong.

BTW, where's the 'empirical evidence' for your god? Wherefore all these rules come from.

[Clarkey]

It's a fricken anomoly, so what!

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Clarkey@Dec 30 2004, 05:00 PM
It's a fricken anomoly, so what!

It's actually not a frickin' anomoly. It's actually kind of frickin' frequent.

http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentwork/cn...2-06-10/591.asp

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c...MNG3N4RAV41.DTL

http://www.gaypenguinforamerica.com/

http://www.abc.net.au/science/features/queercreatures/

[Skyceman]

Originally posted by Daradon@Dec 30 2004, 05:48 AM
Are you serious?# No empirical evidence?# You do know that they've isolated a gene which causes homosexual behaviour.# They brought it back from saying it's the outright cause of being gay, but it's certainly a big part.#

That gay gene study was totally discredited.

For one, the sample size was proven inadequate and no control group of heterosexuals where markers might or might not have been found were shown. Also, six people used in the study died of AIDS which flawed the analysis as AIDS is known to cause clinical insanity which can affect brain structure. The study also focused on the part of the brain called the hypothalamus. Since this part of the brain has not been proven to have anything to do with sexual orientation it was also disreputed as a credible linkage.

Even another scientist made a similar experiment that had findings which directly contradicted the orginal theory's conclusions when he increased the sample size.

I wouldnt lay much weight into that theory.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 30 2004, 07:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 30 2004, 07:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Once you accept the fact that people can be born homosexuals - we can discuss this like adults.

In other words . . . "Agree that I'm right and then we'll talk." No, I don't believe anyone is born a homosexual. To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence people are born homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned it's a learned behavior. We disagree on that. So what. [/b][/quote]

Fine tell that to the gay teens who commit suicide because of what they go through in school when/if they tell people that they are gay.

Actually what you disagree on is the root of the problem. If you start admiting that people can be born gay it discredits religion.

[moon]

You can be born gay and you also certainly can choose to be gay and have environmental factors that will/can make you gay as wel. Just like there are environmental factors that will make those who may be gay live straight.

And can we stop equating being born gay to hair/eye color, height and weight.

[calf]

Originally posted by moon@Dec 30 2004, 04:29 PM
You can be born gay and you also certainly can choose to be gay and have environmental factors that will/can make you gay as wel. Just like there are environmental factors that will make those who may be gay live straight.

And can we stop equating being born gay to hair/eye color, height and weight.

nah, that makes too much sense. it has to be one or the other man :P

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by moon@Dec 30 2004, 04:29 PM
You can be born gay and you also certainly can choose to be gay and have environmental factors that will/can make you gay as wel. Just like there are environmental factors that will make those who may be gay live straight.

And can we stop equating being born gay to hair/eye color, height and weight.

I'd be interested to know who you've chatted with about this "choose" thing. Every gay person I've ever known didn't make a choice no more than I made a choice to be straight.

More than one of them have told me things like "my life would have been a hell of a lot easier if..." and one person said "my dad would talk to me if I was straight but what can you do".

Just for fun, here's a scenario; there is this guy, Bob, and Bob likes women. One day he thinks to himself "well, I'm straight, but from here on in I am going to fake it and pretend I'm gay. From this day forward I choose to be gay even though I like women".

Does that sound reasonable to you? It must, because that is what you are proposing.

[moon]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 30 2004, 05:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 30 2004, 05:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-moon@Dec 30 2004, 04:29 PM
You can be born gay and you also certainly can choose to be gay and have environmental factors that will/can make you gay as wel. Just like there are environmental factors that will make those who may be gay live straight.

And can we stop equating being born gay to hair/eye color, height and weight.

I'd be interested to know who you've chatted with about this "choose" thing. Every gay person I've ever known didn't make a choice no more than I made a choice to be straight.

More than one of them have told me things like "my life would have been a hell of a lot easier if..." and one person said "my dad would talk to me if I was straight but what can you do".

Just for fun, here's a scenario; there is this guy, Bob, and Bob likes women. One day he thinks to himself "well, I'm straight, but from here on in I am going to fake it and pretend I'm gay. From this day forward I choose to be gay even though I like women".

Does that sound reasonable to you? It must, because that is what you are proposing. [/b][/quote]
I don't think that most gay people choose to be gay. I just said that there are gay people who choose to live straight and people who are not not "born" gay that will choose be gay as well.

For most I would admit that it is some form of natural/born with factor and not choosing to be gay.

[Skyceman]

Homosexuality/Lesbianism......a choice made by the following people quoted here:


I am 46 years old. I am female. I was married for 26 years and have three children and two grandchildren. In my case it was definitely a choice. When I was 35 or so, I met this woman, and we became friends. In the manner of teenagers, and at her suggestion, we decided to "experiment" sexually. I laugh now, to think back on it. I was petrified at the thought, but one day I looked at her and said, "OK, kiss me." We looked at each other and laughed, and she did. My response was, "Well, what the hell, the sky didn't fall! Do it again." . . . I made the choice to be a lesbian. I have found that sexually it is the right choice for me. I have been very lucky in that my children are totally accepting of my choice of lifestyle and my ex-husband is one of my best friends. —Reader Response to "Why Are We Gay?" survey conducted by The Advocate, July 2001


I didn't know that I was a lesbian, but I wanted to be one. . . . I worked at it. I was like wanting the possibility. So I started working on the lesbian paper, and going to concerts and the coffeehouse. —a lesbian, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996


I'm not going to spend a lot of time forgiving myself or forgiving anybody else because I started out straight, damn it. Okay? I say to people, "You're going to have to take me as I am. I am converted, if you wish, okay? I used to be straight, now I'm gay. I'm sorry if it would make you happy that I was born this way, but I wasn't." —a gay woman, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996


I was really tired of playing games with men. . . . And finally one day I said, "You know what, I just want a person, a human being." And finally the words came to me, "You want a person? You didn't say you wanted a man, did you? Not a man? What is it for God's sake?" You know, "Could it be a woman?"
—a queer woman, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996


Joey's mother used to tell him about collard greens. When he was a child he would say, "Yuck." His mother said, "I know, I know. But someday your tastes will change." She said that one day she had walked into the kitchen and asked her mother what that was that smelled so good. It turned out to be collard greens, which she had always thought were gross before. From that point on she loved them. The story horrified Joey's romantic sensibility. If something that fundamental could change—if he could be the kind of person who liked collard greens—what else about him might be different someday? What other person might he become? He felt the same way now about his sexuality. Sometimes he saw a woman who appealed to him, or while masturbating he accidentally thought about one. He put these thoughts away, not because he had anything against heterosexuality, but because they made him incomprehensible to himself. He also to this day did not like collards, or any greens for that matter.
—Joey Manley (owner of freespeech.org), "Love Will Tear," Blithe House Quarterly, Vol. 2 No. 1, Winter 1998


I received an e-mail [that] basically said, "Queer by Choice is a double-edged sword. If people can choose to be queer, why can't queers choose to be straight?" This question p*ssed me off tremendously. Why, you might ask? Because, duh, I chose to be queer. That's the friggin' reality of it. If that has bad political ramifications well then so be it. We cannot friggin' change reality for goddamned politics. It angers me that someone could even try to deny me my own reality. I have yet to say of queers, "oh well, they just can't be born that way because that implies it's a disability." or whatever. Frankly, I don't really give a sh*t. But don't come shove politics down my throat like that will change the reality that I consciously chose to be queer when I was thirteen. —Eve Shalom, "Common Sense (or Lack Thereof)," diary entry on glass.poetess.org, May 31, 2000


When I became homosexual I felt free of a great amount of bullsh*t. I know that people are shackled by a lot of things that they don't believe in, that aren't in their interest to pursue. They pursue them because of the enormous social pressures that play on people, and one of those things is heterosexuality. People don't want to get involved in other people's lives in the straight world, Men don't—they can't. They're afraid of sex. . . . Homosexuality is very positive in people's lives because they can become free of a lot of conventional social imagery that rules them, chains them down, that directs their lives. They can get outside that. It's the first step. Becoming gay is an opening-up process to people: they feel they can be more honest and more real. —Mark Liebergall, The Ninth Street Center Journal, Vol. 2, 1974


[E]ven though I was normally homophobic prior to this choice, I didn't really understand the ramifications of being queer til my mother actually thought I was . . . soo . . . that's how someone can choose the horrible, horrible life of being queer. And, besides, I'd already become a feminist a year or so prior to my choice & decided I never wanted to marry a man. I figured I would just live a sad and lonely life. It was a godsend for me to find out that being lesbian was actually an option. Oh, and for the record, no, when I chose to be queer I did not do so due to any book or anything. I did so because I wanted to do so. I had no idea it was a "political statement" or anything else. I was a feminist, and I saw it [as] pretty obvious that being lesbian was the only way I could live freely in my personal life. —Eve Shalom, "Common Sense (or Lack Thereof)," diary entry on glass.poetess.org, May 31, 2000

A homosexual is someone who has chosen to let himself love a person of the same sex: and I made that decision myself. So the responsibility is all my own.
—Kenzaburo Oe, Kojinteki Na Taiken [A Personal Matter], 1964; translated from Japanese by John Nathan, 1968


I tend to think that choice is all-important, freedom of choice. I feel less and less sympathetic with psychological theories of causality, even ordinary Freudian ones, that, you know, we suffer from our pasts, and are compelled by them. I sort of believe in this possibility of infinite instantaneous liberation from any kind of past, in a moment of absolute choice. And I think that we reiterate these choices on a day-by-day basis. So that we make ourselves gay every time we do something gay. And should, you know, the mood come over us, I think that you or I could walk out of here and go out to a straight singles bar and you know, be neck and neck by tomorrow morning with people who've been at it for years. So I'm not a determinist.
—a gay man, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Skyceman+Dec 30 2004, 01:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Skyceman @ Dec 30 2004, 01:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Daradon@Dec 30 2004, 05:48 AM
Are you serious? No empirical evidence? You do know that they've isolated a gene which causes homosexual behaviour. They brought it back from saying it's the outright cause of being gay, but it's certainly a big part.

That gay gene study was totally discredited.

For one, the sample size was proven inadequate and no control group of heterosexuals where markers might or might not have been found were shown. Also, six people used in the study died of AIDS which flawed the analysis as AIDS is known to cause clinical insanity which can affect brain structure. The study also focused on the part of the brain called the hypothalamus. Since this part of the brain has not been proven to have anything to do with sexual orientation it was also disreputed as a credible linkage.

Even another scientist made a similar experiment that had findings which directly contradicted the orginal theory's conclusions when he increased the sample size.

I wouldnt lay much weight into that theory. [/b][/quote]
Reagrdless, how the heck could it be a learned behaviour if people are being ridiculed and ostrisized for it...? 'Hmmmm, I think I'll try this, my family will hate me and people will be violent towards me, but what the heck?'

[Sammie]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Dec 30 2004, 04:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Dec 30 2004, 04:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

In other words . . . "Agree that I'm right and then we'll talk." No, I don't believe anyone is born a homosexual. To my knowledge, there is no empirical evidence people are born homosexuals. As far as I'm concerned it's a learned behavior. We disagree on that. So what.

Fine tell that to the gay teens who commit suicide because of what they go through in school when/if they tell people that they are gay.

Actually what you disagree on is the root of the problem. If you start admiting that people can be born gay it discredits religion.[/b][/quote]
Now THAT"S strange logic! First of all religion is easy to discredit because religion is simply a system of belief in a God or gods. However, if you think you can discredit the Jewish, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, and Christian faiths, please do so. Nobody wants to waste a lifetime believing a bogus God.

[CaramonLS]

Ok hmmm how can I explain this for you Sammie.

You contend that being gay is a choice. Yes?

Well that is a popular stance amoung most religious types, including the president of the USA who admits he really doesn't know if being gay is a choice or not.

So if being gay WAS NOT a choice, you could be born that way, it would make religious people like yourself look bad... it would be exactly like racism, gender discrimination, etc etc.

Heck why don't I just not let you marry because of those green eyes you have?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Skyceman@Dec 30 2004, 06:41 PM
Homosexuality/Lesbianism......a choice made by the following people quoted here:


I am 46 years old. I am female. I was married for 26 years and have three children and two grandchildren. In my case it was definitely a choice. When I was 35 or so, I met this woman, and we became friends. In the manner of teenagers, and at her suggestion, we decided to "experiment" sexually. I laugh now, to think back on it. I was petrified at the thought, but one day I looked at her and said, "OK, kiss me." We looked at each other and laughed, and she did. My response was, "Well, what the hell, the sky didn't fall! Do it again." . . . I made the choice to be a lesbian. I have found that sexually it is the right choice for me. I have been very lucky in that my children are totally accepting of my choice of lifestyle and my ex-husband is one of my best friends. —Reader Response to "Why Are We Gay?" survey conducted by The Advocate, July 2001


I didn't know that I was a lesbian, but I wanted to be one. . . . I worked at it. I was like wanting the possibility. So I started working on the lesbian paper, and going to concerts and the coffeehouse. —a lesbian, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996


I'm not going to spend a lot of time forgiving myself or forgiving anybody else because I started out straight, damn it. Okay? I say to people, "You're going to have to take me as I am. I am converted, if you wish, okay? I used to be straight, now I'm gay. I'm sorry if it would make you happy that I was born this way, but I wasn't." —a gay woman, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996


I was really tired of playing games with men. . . . And finally one day I said, "You know what, I just want a person, a human being." And finally the words came to me, "You want a person? You didn't say you wanted a man, did you? Not a man? What is it for God's sake?" You know, "Could it be a woman?"
—a queer woman, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996


Joey's mother used to tell him about collard greens. When he was a child he would say, "Yuck." His mother said, "I know, I know. But someday your tastes will change." She said that one day she had walked into the kitchen and asked her mother what that was that smelled so good. It turned out to be collard greens, which she had always thought were gross before. From that point on she loved them. The story horrified Joey's romantic sensibility. If something that fundamental could change—if he could be the kind of person who liked collard greens—what else about him might be different someday? What other person might he become? He felt the same way now about his sexuality. Sometimes he saw a woman who appealed to him, or while masturbating he accidentally thought about one. He put these thoughts away, not because he had anything against heterosexuality, but because they made him incomprehensible to himself. He also to this day did not like collards, or any greens for that matter.
—Joey Manley (owner of freespeech.org), "Love Will Tear," Blithe House Quarterly, Vol. 2 No. 1, Winter 1998


I received an e-mail [that] basically said, "Queer by Choice is a double-edged sword. If people can choose to be queer, why can't queers choose to be straight?" This question p*ssed me off tremendously. Why, you might ask? Because, duh, I chose to be queer. That's the friggin' reality of it. If that has bad political ramifications well then so be it. We cannot friggin' change reality for goddamned politics. It angers me that someone could even try to deny me my own reality. I have yet to say of queers, "oh well, they just can't be born that way because that implies it's a disability." or whatever. Frankly, I don't really give a sh*t. But don't come shove politics down my throat like that will change the reality that I consciously chose to be queer when I was thirteen. —Eve Shalom, "Common Sense (or Lack Thereof)," diary entry on glass.poetess.org, May 31, 2000


When I became homosexual I felt free of a great amount of bullsh*t. I know that people are shackled by a lot of things that they don't believe in, that aren't in their interest to pursue. They pursue them because of the enormous social pressures that play on people, and one of those things is heterosexuality. People don't want to get involved in other people's lives in the straight world, Men don't—they can't. They're afraid of sex. . . . Homosexuality is very positive in people's lives because they can become free of a lot of conventional social imagery that rules them, chains them down, that directs their lives. They can get outside that. It's the first step. Becoming gay is an opening-up process to people: they feel they can be more honest and more real. —Mark Liebergall, The Ninth Street Center Journal, Vol. 2, 1974


[E]ven though I was normally homophobic prior to this choice, I didn't really understand the ramifications of being queer til my mother actually thought I was . . . soo . . . that's how someone can choose the horrible, horrible life of being queer. And, besides, I'd already become a feminist a year or so prior to my choice & decided I never wanted to marry a man. I figured I would just live a sad and lonely life. It was a godsend for me to find out that being lesbian was actually an option. Oh, and for the record, no, when I chose to be queer I did not do so due to any book or anything. I did so because I wanted to do so. I had no idea it was a "political statement" or anything else. I was a feminist, and I saw it [as] pretty obvious that being lesbian was the only way I could live freely in my personal life. —Eve Shalom, "Common Sense (or Lack Thereof)," diary entry on glass.poetess.org, May 31, 2000

A homosexual is someone who has chosen to let himself love a person of the same sex: and I made that decision myself. So the responsibility is all my own.
—Kenzaburo Oe, Kojinteki Na Taiken [A Personal Matter], 1964; translated from Japanese by John Nathan, 1968


I tend to think that choice is all-important, freedom of choice. I feel less and less sympathetic with psychological theories of causality, even ordinary Freudian ones, that, you know, we suffer from our pasts, and are compelled by them. I sort of believe in this possibility of infinite instantaneous liberation from any kind of past, in a moment of absolute choice. And I think that we reiterate these choices on a day-by-day basis. So that we make ourselves gay every time we do something gay. And should, you know, the mood come over us, I think that you or I could walk out of here and go out to a straight singles bar and you know, be neck and neck by tomorrow morning with people who've been at it for years. So I'm not a determinist.
—a gay man, quoted in Vera Whisman's Queer by Choice: Lesbians, Gay Men, and the Politics of Identity, 1996

Good one. Kinda hard to argue with some of that but of course I will.

There is equal anecdotal evidence that would argue the opposite.

I respect the "choices" those people made but I don't know, a lot of that sounds more like "I accepted being gay" as opposed to "I chose it". Some of it doesn't though and sounds like a conscious choice but it is just beyond me as to how someone could make that choice so I'm skeptical.

[Sammie]

Why don't you just give us the empirical proof that gays are born gay? Then we won't waste so much time talking in circles. You don't have any proof? Why am I SO surprised?