Rev Phelps to Protest at Tim Mclean's Funeral

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

Really, it does? And what does the New Testament say?

Also, surely you know the difference between the old and new covenant AND, you do realize that Christians follow the teachings of Jesus Christ, who BTW only exited in the New Testament, and Jews follow, or are supposed to follow the Old Testament because of their refusal to accept Jesus Christ as the 'messiah?'

I am aware, and what specifically are you asking about what the New Testament says?

Then you should really quit looking at religion in such a narrow-minded viewpoint. You're no better than the people who interpret it fundamentally.

Yeah, I'm sure I'll strap on a bomb and kill heathens, I'll support violence in the name of my god, I'll support ignorance over overwhelming evidence, etc..

I'm always open to ideas, its what a logical and reasonable person lives for.

And what does the word of God say about Christians and the Old Testament?

That they are terrific!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Boblobla

If they are going to follow the bible literally:

John 8:7 'Let the person among you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.'

Romans 3:23 'for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,'

Seems pretty clear that they should not be condemning others...

New Testament doesn't count, remember?

The whole 'New' Covenant, or the teachings of Jesus Christ, who taught not to condemn, and not to judge, but to have love and understanding for everyone, including gays, bigots, racists and even atheists....well, that doesn't count.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Thor

Yeah, I'm sure I'll strap on a bomb and kill heathens, I'll support violence in the name of my god, I'll support ignorance over overwhelming evidence, etc..

If I am not mistaken, the Koran does not condone the actions of these extremists. They are to Muslims what the WBC are to Christians.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Thor

I am aware, and what specifically are you asking about what the New Testament says?

About how a Christian, considering a 'Christian' follows the New Testament, should act? How should they treat people that are gay? People they disagree with? What does the New Testament say about 'judging' or 'condemning' other people?

You do realize that you're only taking half of the Bible, and forming your viewpoint? A viewpoint of Christianity no less, when in fact Christianity has never BEEN based around what the Old Testament has said. Ever.

Yeah, I'm sure I'll strap on a bomb and kill heathens, I'll support violence in the name of my god, I'll support ignorance over overwhelming evidence, etc..

And you think anyone that is Muslim is going to do that? Any Christian? You have a point that many people within both religions support ignorance over overwhelming scientific evidence. I'll be the first person up on the table telling them that too.

I'm always open to ideas, its what a logical and reasonable person lives for.

Me too. And I'm not an atheist.

[Boblobla]

Originally Posted by Azure

New Testament doesn't count, remember?

The whole 'New' Covenant, or the teachings of Jesus Christ, who taught not to condemn, and not to judge, but to have love and understanding for everyone, including gays, bigots, racists and even atheists....well, that doesn't count.

I posted that before I read all the Old/New arguments.

TBQH I have never found a condescending tone to be very productive in a theological debate. Just my opinion, more flies with honey and all that BS.

Well, the Stamps game is over and the Mrs. wants me to come to bed, I am looking forward to reading the rest of this tomorrow.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Thor

I do appreciate the fact you don't let your god be this way, however the bible does support these people's behaviors. The Bible is quite judgemental on a great host of things and god is very clear on his vengeance against many different people.



Which is good, its what a reasonable person should believe. However the Bible again is very clear on this, gay=death, there is no 'grey area' nor is God unclear about his feelings of people who do not worship him and many other violent tendancies.



Well the old testament which is the word of god, is the key factor in the lives of Christians in the US, not so much in more liberal countries like our own.

The Bible is the word of god, perfect word of god. People 'evolving' the bible to fit modern morals, societal standards is cleary against the wish of god and would find you in eternal flame for it.

Society does evolve but a great deal of islam and christianity believes that not only is Evolution wrong (ignoring all the evidence ftw) and that we should go back to our biblical roots of the Khoran and testaments.

Its why I'm atheist, I'm not against belief in the idea of a supreme being, although I still think its silly. I am however very much against the idea of following these dusty old outdated texts written by humans that is a clear and present danger to us all today with its ideas.

If you chose to be an athiest - i'm happy for you.

No disrespect Thor but i'm not going to get into debate with you over what's in the Bible. You have your beliefs as i have mine. I suspected it might come down to this and thus will choose to bow out gracefully

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Azure

About how a Christian, considering a 'Christian' follows the New Testament, should act? How should they treat people that are gay? People they disagree with? What does the New Testament say about 'judging' or 'condemning' other people?

I go by people's actions and what is being told to the followers of Christianity in the USA, to a minor degree here in Canada. Its clear that the values of hating on gays is clearly commonly held belief, not to mention the utter propoganda campaign against evolution when most of them haven't given evolution a chance.

You do realize that you're only taking half of the Bible, and forming your viewpoint? A viewpoint of Christianity no less, when in fact Christianity has never BEEN based around what the Old Testament has said. Ever.

I base its on all the holy texts, currently reading a translation of the Khoran. What you have clearly against you, is that no matter what you can find in the 'new testament' you need only see the actions of the followers of that faith to judge them.

And you think anyone that is Muslim is going to do that? Any Christian? You have a point that many people within both religions support ignorance over overwhelming scientific evidence. I'll be the first person up on the table telling them that too.

I know quite clearly that people take on actions of extreme behavior like suicide bombing because of their belief and certainty of rewards from their god in an afterlife.

You won't find an atheist doing any of those things, nor agnostic, etc..

Me too. And I'm not an atheist.

I'm sure whatever term you choose for your own viewpoint, if its based on a deity you certainly diverge from me at a critical point.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by Dion

If you chose to be an athiest - i'm happy for you.

No disrespect Thor but i'm not going to get into debate with you over what's in the Bible. You have your beliefs as i have mine. I suspected it might come down to this and thus will choose to bow out gracefully

Your a good guy, and I do enjoy our back/forth's.. So I'll gladly just walk away too.

[Hemi-Cuda]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

One of the groups have been stopped at the border and denied entry.

http://www.canada.com/news/canada/story.html?id=707624

Right freaking on... At least someone has balls I see. I still plan on going to "counter protest" tomorrow... if they are even there.

well this should be the end of it should it not? even if some manage to sneak in, as soon as they start protesting at the funeral couldn't the cops just arrest them for disturbing the peace? in that article the government labeled them a hate speech group, so i would think the only thing they would have to do is open their mouths to get kicked out of the funeral

[Resolute 14]

More on the government denying them entry:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...o-protest.html

Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day's office sent an alert to border patrol to "look out" for people with signs and pamphlets consistent with the messages that the church promotes and to keep them out of the country, Winnipeg MP Pat Martin told CBC News on Friday.
"Entering Canada by a U.S. citizen isn't an absolute right, and if you're coming here only to disrupt the social order and to promote what we consider to be bordering on hate crimes or hate language, they shouldn't come into Canada," Martin said.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by BlackArcher101

One of the groups have been stopped at the border and denied entry.

http://www.canada.com/news/canada/story.html?id=707624

Right freaking on... At least someone has balls I see. I still plan on going to "counter protest" tomorrow... if they are even there.

This is what they should have been doing from the start.

A chant perhaps?

"Just say no to Westboro!!"

Although, I have to say I find it extremely odd that they have WBC tattoos on their asses. Isnt permanent identifying markings generally the realm of a cult?

All I'm worried about is if the second group manages to get through because they go through the Coutts crossing at midnight or whatever. Keep them all out and let this guy's family have one moment of reasonable peace.

Their lives have probably been hell ever since it happened, and these people want to make a freakshow out of their kid's funeral too.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Locke

All I'm worried about is if the second group manages to get through because they go through the Coutts crossing at midnight or whatever. Keep them all out and let this guy's family have one moment of reasonable peace.

Depending on where these Westboro people are coming from (assuming since the church is in Topeka that they are from Kansas). If Canada Customs is keeping an eye out for them. Kansas plates or ID will put up a red flag immediatly. Especially at Midnight with minimal traffic.

Then again they could fly in and clear customs at the airport.

[Mccree]

Looks like some were turned away but some got thru.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...808?hub=Canada

[FanIn80]

I say let the ones that get through show up with their signs, and then arrest them and formally charge them with hate crimes. Lock them up for a bit, then deport them and place their names on the "No Entry" list.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Thor

I go by people's actions and what is being told to the followers of Christianity in the USA, to a minor degree here in Canada. Its clear that the values of hating on gays is clearly commonly held belief, not to mention the utter propoganda campaign against evolution when most of them haven't given evolution a chance.

Over 50% of the people in the United States 'hate' gays?

Don't you think you're stereotyping a 'religion' based on what 'sect' is doing? That would be just like me saying that all Muslims are terrorists, because almost all terrorists are Muslims.

I base its on all the holy texts, currently reading a translation of the Khoran.

And what you're reading is explicitly saying that every Islamic should put on a suicide vest and go kill 'infidels?'

What you have clearly against you, is that no matter what you can find in the 'new testament' you need only see the actions of the followers of that faith to judge them.

That isn't 'against' me. I'm not a fundamental Christian. Quit stereotyping every Christian into the same damn pot.

Know what? Before you accuse other people of being 'ignorant'...you might want to go look in the mirror first. All you're doing is making crap up to support your viewpoint, where you then put yourself on a pedestal, condemn everyone that is 'religious'....spout off a bunch of 'lies' about Christianity and Islam, and stereotype each group into 'one' category.

You're no better than the idiots that want to protest this funeral.

I know quite clearly that people take on actions of extreme behavior like suicide bombing because of their belief and certainty of rewards from their god in an afterlife.

Really? Really?

You don't say.

Now tell me where the Koran tells every Muslim to do that. Please, tell me.

You won't find an atheist doing any of those things, nor agnostic, etc..

Go look in the mirror. Your ignorance AND arrogance towards religion is astounding.

[Azure]

BTW, Thor, instead of 'ignoring' what I asked, why don't you answer the question...

About how a Christian, considering a 'Christian' follows the New Testament, should act? How should they treat people that are gay? People they disagree with? What does the New Testament say about 'judging' or 'condemning' other people?

Come on, man up.

[onetwo_threefour]

Can I ask a question, Azure? If Christianity is not based in the Old Testament, why is homosexuality even considered a sin, and why does the mainstream church have a problem with gay priests, even if thery are not sexually active? I think Pope Benedict would disagree with your statements about the relevance of the Old Testament. As a kid, I went to Sunday school and I remember learning abou the Old Testament and being told that the Old Testament was still applicable, although modified by the New Testament.

The biggest challenge for me with organized religion is the picking and choosing. Although we know that Jesus basically cast away a good chunk of the rules from the Old Testament, he was hardly clear or explicit. It's all a meater of interpretation to even suggest that homosexuality is still sinful. It was referred to as an abomination, just like the shellfish thing or pork, or wearing mixed textiles. Now of course, many of those abominations are widely practiced by Christians without recrimination. Lots of people justify it by saying that Jesus only repealed some but not all. The problem is, Jesus wasn't all that clear.

It's a real exercise in mental gymnastics to try to claim that the Old Testament doesn't inform Christian theology and still try to claim that the sins defined in the Old Testament somehow carry forward regardless. The New Testament doesn't give us a Paris Hilton table of "What's Hot" or not from the Old Testament, nor does it give us exhaustive lists of what Jesus considered sins worthy of stoning, etc.

Thor's point is a valid one. What does the New Testament say, 'Love the sinner, hate the sin". However, Jesus did not condemn stonings, and could be pretty harsh toward certain classes of 'sinners' as well. Even the famous line 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone', has been interpreted differently from the usual perception. Many people believe that it means that humans are fallible and shouldn't take it upon themselves to judge, but more than one person has suggested that the message is really that people with the same type of sin should not be in judgment of others.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Locke

This is what they should have been doing from the start.

A chant perhaps?

"Just say no to Westboro!!"

Although, I have to say I find it extremely odd that they have WBC tattoos on their asses. Isnt permanent identifying markings generally the realm of a cult?

All I'm worried about is if the second group manages to get through because they go through the Coutts crossing at midnight or whatever. Keep them all out and let this guy's family have one moment of reasonable peace.

Their lives have probably been hell ever since it happened, and these people want to make a freakshow out of their kid's funeral too.

I say that we leave the government out, let these scumbags protest and give the community a chance to stand up for itself. Not violently, but through a massive show of support in favour of the Mcleans.

[Esoteric]

Originally Posted by peter12

I say that we leave the government out, let these scumbags protest and give the community a chance to stand up for itself. Not violently, but through a massive show of support in favour of the Mcleans.

I disagree. I wouldn't want to have to hear a protest about my deceased family members near by own soil.

Keep them out of the country.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by onetwo_threefour

Can I ask a question, Azure? If Christianity is not based in the Old Testament, why is homosexuality even considered a sin, and why does the mainstream church have a problem with gay priests, even if thery are not sexually active?

First of all, how do you know you're gay or not if you're not sexually active?

Secondly, Jesus said quite clearly in Matthew 19:4 that marriage was intended to be between a man and a woman, and some people feel that being 'gay' is a sin because it goes against what Jesus said about marriage.

I think Pope Benedict would disagree with your statements about the relevance of the Old Testament. As a kid, I went to Sunday school and I remember laearning abou the Old Testament and being told that the Old Testament was still applicable, although modified by the New Testament.

I'm not Catholic. Far from it.

Also, I'm not saying that you should 'avoid' the Old Testament because your belief system isn't centered around it. All I'm saying is that Christianity is based around the teachings of Jesus Christ. Not around the Old Testament.

The biggest challenge for me with organized religion is the picking and choosing.

I think organized religion is by itself a problem. But you're right...too often people 'pick and choose' what they want to believe because it justifies their actions.

Although we know that Jesus basically cast away a good chunk of the rules from the Old Testament, he was hardly clear or explicit. It's all a meater of interpretation to even suggest that homosexuality is still sinful.

Indeed it is. As far as I know, the New Testament doesn't clearly say that homosexuality is a sin. Jesus Christ only referred too 'marriage' in his teachings.

It was referred to as an abomination, just like the shellfish thing or pork, or wearing mixed textiles. Lots of people justify it by saying that Jesus only repealed some but not all. The problem is, Jesus wasn't all that clear. How do we know the Ten Commandments are still applicable?

Maybe because the Ten Commandments were all mentioned in the New Testament? See, this is my problem. How many people have a problem with religion because they're ignorant about it? Because they refuse to go 'research' what the Bible actually says?

http://www.moseshand.com/questions/p24a.htm

It's a real exercise in mental gymnastics to try to claim that the Old Testament doesn't inform Christian theology and still try to claim that the sins defined in the Old Testament somehow carry forward regardless.

Really, its not. At least not for me. Never has been, and never will be. Far as I'm concerned, people who try to claim that the Old Testament has ANYTHING to do with the belief system of modern-day Christianity is intentionally choosing to be ignorant about it. Dictionary definition of Christianity calls it a belief 'centered around the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.' Last time I checked Jesus Christ wasn't around in the Old Testament.

The New Testament doesn't give us a Paris Hilton table of "What's Hot" or not from the Old Testament, nor does it give us exhaustive lists of what Jesus considered sins worthy of stoning, etc.

No sin is worthy of stoning. That is why there is no 'exhaustive list' in the New Testament.