Should "God keep our land glorious and free"?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

I personally dont give a fart...but

GOD KEEP OUR LAND?

Reference to a god did not appear in any constitution-type document in this country until 1982. Then the phrase “Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God” was arbitrarily inserted. On June 27, 1980, the National Anthem was mysteriously transformed into a prayer with the addition of the phrase “god keep our land. . .” Article XIX of the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights holds that “Everyone has a right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference. . . It is certainly interference to use the force of law to compel several million Canadian atheists to join in religious exercises or thoughts through the inclusion of the god references in documents meant for all Canadians. A letter to Justice Minister Alan Rock results in a reply that includes the following: “the Charter applies equally to everyone in Canada and does not advantage or disadvantage anyone on the basis of their religious beliefs.” Mr. Rock apparently excludes about 3 million Canadians who hold no religious beliefs, from the group “everyone”. He does not answer the question as to how atheists should respond to the singing of the National Anthem(prayer), Sit in embarrassed silence? Wait in the hall?

oh and the court thing...I was just on Jury and you dont need to swear on a bible unless you desire to do so. Of the 12 members on my jury 9 decided not to.

Okay, I don't want to get into it with you again, but come on, please tell me you don't agree with the guy who thinks that that line in the preamble actully means that athiests are excluded from the Charter.


I'm failing to see how acknowledgeing the faith of the people who founded the country excludes the 3 million athiests in the country from what is a list of secular rights.

Please explatin to me how things like the language laws, right against unlawful search, against self incrimination, freedom of speach and of the press, etc etc, are not applicable to athiests simply because the first line says something to the effect of "We're writing this document based on the pricipals of guys who founded this country a long time ago who just happened to be christian"

Show me one right that the charter guarantess that excludes athiests, and show me one that any athiest would reject based on it's "Chistian" roots.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Yes, but this is from the Charter, which came into effect in 1982, not the Constitution Act of 1867. Note that it says Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God", not Canada was founded...

The Canadian Constitution, of which the Charter is an important part, provides the foundation for all laws in Canada, not the "supremacy of God". That line is also clearly at odds with the freedom of conscience and religion granted in Section 2.

Was/is is all semantics. Yes, Canada WAS founded on those pricipals back in 1867, and those are the pricipals upon which it IS still founded.

[MarchHare]

Gotta agree with flameswin here.

Like it or not, Canada was founded on the pricipals of guys who thought God was and should be the guiding force of law and morality, and as such those are the pricipals that the Carter should protect, and those are some pretty good pricipals.

Marchhare:
If you'd like to point out exactly which of those pricipals you disagree with, I'll agree that that's an offensive statement.

Which principles of God and religion forming the basis of morality are you referring to, exactly? The 10 Commandments?

In a previous thread several months ago, I established that only two of the 10 Commandments actually coincide with laws in Canada, and the Charter even contradicts many of the other Commandments. Furthermore, the only two Commandments that match Canadian law (don't steal and don't kill) are actually universal values that transcend every society, regardless of the dominant religion (or lack of religion) in that region.

When you talk about Canada having been founded on the basis of (Christian) religion, you must realize that we're not talking about old men in 1867 founding the nation. When Canada's constitution was repatriated in 1982, that action superceded all previous laws, and at that time, it was agreed that Canada was a multicultural nation that granted freedom of conscience and religion to all citizens.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Was/is is all semantics. Yes, Canada WAS founded on those pricipals back in 1867, and those are the pricipals upon which it IS still founded.

Ok, I'll bite. Our principles don't come from God or religion. For example, there is much in the Bible that we now consider morally repugnant. We pick and choose. Our ethics and morality have roots in the natural world.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

oh and the court thing...I was just on Jury and you dont need to swear on a bible unless you desire to do so. Of the 12 members on my jury 9 decided not to.

Doesn't the word testify come from the latin testes or in other words swearing on your testicles. That would be an oath.

[Gozer]

O Canada, we rochambeau for thee!

[metal_geek]

Canada was also "founded" by people who thought women shouldn't vote, but you don't see that stuff being brought up in the charter... Why not include that part of history...

"Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the superiority of men"

And marchhare is exactly right.
________
LovelyWendie

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

Which principles of God and religion forming the basis of morality are you referring to, exactly? The 10 Commandments?

In a previous thread several months ago, I established that only two of the 10 Commandments actually coincide with laws in Canada, and the Charter even contradicts many of the other Commandments. Furthermore, the only two Commandments that match Canadian law (don't steal and don't kill) are actually universal values that transcend every society, regardless of the dominant religion (or lack of religion) in that region.

When you talk about Canada having been founded on the basis of (Christian) religion, you must realize that we're not talking about old men in 1867 founding the nation. When Canada's constitution was repatriated in 1982, that action superceded all previous laws, and at that time, it was agreed that Canada was a multicultural nation that granted freedom of conscience and religion to all citizens.

Yes I realize that the charter was only introduced in 1982 with the rest of the constitution, but you've got to realize that the people writing it didn't just decide to start fresh, and that consideration was given to what the Fathers of Confederation had in mind for this nation.
To acknowledge that thier beliefs recoginized the supremacy of God and the rule of law makes perfect sense, especially when one of the fundamental rights is freedom of religion, which includes freedom to choose no religion. It is no different than recognizing that they also believed in the rule of law because that is what the rest of the document is about.

To me the preamble recognizes that some of the rights deal with legislation, and some to the rights to your own beliefs. To me that bit in the preamble opens the way for what to many is a very important section of the charter (the right to freedom of religion), not as an attempt to shun athiests.

[Gozer]

Originally Posted by metal_geek

Canada was also "founded" by people who thought women shouldn't vote, but you don't see that stuff being brought up in the charter... Why not include that part of history...

And marchhare is excatly right.

I'm kinda sick of the name Canada...

[4X4]

Originally Posted by metal_geek

Lawyer_01: "DID YOU KILL THAT LADY????"
Murderer_02: "NO...."
Lawyer_01: "You swore on the bible sir"
Murder_02: "Did I?.... Oh That's right I forgot.... Yes I did kill her"...

We have a little practice in this country called "innocent until proven guilty". I demand that you change the name of 'Murderer' to 'Accused'.

[Ayrahb]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Doesn't the word testify come from the latin testes or in other words swearing on your testicles. That would be an oath.

If that were the case, I would consider grabbing my crotch during my citizenship ceremony.

[metal_geek]

Originally Posted by 4X4

We have a little practice in this country called "innocent until proven guilty". I demand that you change the name of 'Murderer' to 'Accused'.

My religon states otherwise...
________
Big Tits Cams

[Hanna Sniper]

If you can change our flag, then why not that anthem.

I say remove it and leave the god references for fictional story books.

[schnee]

Originally Posted by troutman

And what about those Canadians that can't stand?

Originally Posted by flameswin

The scrooges of the country may feel this line doesn't erpresent who they are.

With glowing hearts we see thee rise

What about those of us that don't have E.T. chests?

[flip]

Originally Posted by Hanna Sniper

If you can change our flag, then why not that anthem.

I say remove it and leave the god references for fictional story books.

I'm sorry did I miss the change from a maple leaf to a sprawled out beaver?

Or are you talking about the Union Jack? Technically I'd say that was never our flag we were just using it. and any we had after that were basically slight alterations to the Union Jack (see Man and ON current flags.)

We haven't changed flages in almost 50 years and I don't think changing the anthem is a good idea either.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by flip

I'm sorry did I miss the change from a maple leaf to a sprawled out beaver?

Or are you talking about the Union Jack? Technically I'd say that was never our flag we were just using it. and any we had after that were basically slight alterations to the Union Jack (see Man and ON current flags.)

We haven't changed flages in almost 50 years and I don't think changing the anthem is a good idea either.

I think he's talking about the Red Ensign:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ensign#Canada

And, once again, the lyrics to O Canada have already been changed. The line "God keep our land..." was not part of the original English lyrics, but was only adopted in the 1980s by Pierre Trudeau's Liberal government.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by metal_geek

My religon states otherwise...

Since I am atheist, sir, I further demand that you recognize the separation of church from state and stop infringing on my rights and beliefs, with your beliefs.

[Hack&Lube]

This is hilarious!

Wait until the oppressed atheists and the religious zealots start reading the Constitution Act 1982 and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:"

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

This is hilarious!

Wait until the oppressed atheists and the religious zealots start reading the Constitution Act 1982 and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms:

"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:"

...

You might want to read the rest of the thread before posting a reply.

[Hack&Lube]

Canada, please don't turn into Britain in trying appease every religious group. Recentely, the British Police APOLOGISED for a Police Poster sent to shops that showed a cute police dog sitting in a police hat after it was protested and decried by Muslims because they think that the dog is the most "impure and unclean" animal in the world according to the Koran.