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Originally Posted by Daradon
That is what people who don't go through tough illness tend to think.
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Look, I'm trying not to be mean or a jerk here, its a debate. I've been through some illnesses, especially when I was young, hell, when I was born my doctor basically told my parents that I wouldn't live past the age of 5 because of severe lung issues, I spent the first 5 years of my life with blue lips and blue fingernails. I have a family member who's going through a life and death struggle with cancer right now, and its basically going to kill her off, however she's certainly continuing treatment because she doesn't believe in odds.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
Ramifications? What like life or death? News flash, everyone dies. Doesn't mean you need to spend your life in pain.
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Thanks for the news flash, but there are lots of examples of people who live their life with horrible diseases, that suffer every moment of every day, and they make that decision to live with me. A prime example of that is my sister in law who has picked up Parkinson's which is a terrible insideous disease, that will eventually reduce her from a very vibrant and pretty young woman to a shell of herself, but to her, life is precious.
Where I have a problem is that I honestly don't think that the argument that the patient knows his body is really a good argument when your talking about a 11 year old kid. Heck how many times have any of us been sick and wished that the pain or symptoms would just end? My question again is that nobody in that article has talked about the kids odds of surviving with chemo, so again, I have to asked the question, is it a 100 percent sure that this kid is going to die with or without chemo, what are the odds that chemo can force this back into revision. Is this kid making his decision based around the fact that chemo is an awful and terrible thing to go through?
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Originally Posted by Daradon
If you have fight and purpose, then you go for it. But people within in their own body usually know what's best.
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I disagree with this, people know about the symptoms, but they are not medically trained, and often are not mentally mature enough to make that decision without the other variables. Pain does not neccessairly mean death or dying. Suffering does not mean fatal, its telling you that something is wrong or dramatically wrong.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
I doubt this poor child, who has been through so much, is worried about the pain. He's just tired with the long trip.
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I think he is worried about the pain and suffering. In a lot of ways this was a very one sided article, it doesn't discuss his chance for recovery or his long term prognosis.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
I know when I started refusing treatment (not cancer, but heart) it wasn't cause I was giving up, or scared of the pain. It was cause I saw no value in the treatment.
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I'm not trying to assault you or your value system, but I think things differ on a case by case basis, and my concern especially with the right to die and the right to choose groups is that its become a blanket argument. Whereas a good health professional has to evaluate the mental and physical well being of the patient both short and long term. Where my doubt comes into play, is that I haven't met one doctor who would continue a treatement that would reduce quality of life if it wasn't going to do any good in curing the affliction.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
Kids are smarter than you give them credit for, and sick kids often have a wisdom that adults don't match until they are on their deathbeds.
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Thats a blanket statement to me, and it has to be evaluated on a kid by kid basis, and I think thats where this whole scenario comes into doubt. We don't know from a few lines of news print if this kid is all that wise, if this is a smart decision or a emotional decision? If he's been influenced one way or the other by his folks. I'm scared of a society thats suddenly going to take the decisions away from health care professionals and put the decision entirely in the hands of a person thats in pain and emotional, that to me is where bad decisions come from.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
Ramifiations? Really? This kid is not leading a country or raising a family. He just wants peace.
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I don't think that you can put future value on any child. We just don't know.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
EDIT: For some reason, our western ideals believe that life is the most important part of living. Go too far on that end and it's Terry Schivo. And those people get all high and mighty about it. Like they are the ones on the bed dying, suffering.
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I have almost no problem with the rights of the dying as long as there is a panel of doctors or health care pros that are willing to sign off that there is not treatment thats going to cure them, and their quality of life is going to suck and their going to die. But I have problems with leaving the decision in the hands of the person who's going through the treatment, and might be tired or in pain. Thats all.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
Being alive is not living. And no one should be forced to live a life they don't want. Now of course, some don't have the wisdom to see everything. But being around sick kids all my life, and being one, you are not going to convince me this kid doesn't know what's best for him.
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Being alive is living in its simplest form, and I'm not here to berate you or go after you on an emotional level, we're exchanging opinions nothing more. But I do have trouble with a kid deciding whats best for him, especially when there are doctors that disagree with him.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
We're not talking about a kid threatening suicide because they don't fit in. We are talking about an individual battling something most of you will never have to worry about, and would be ill prepared to deal with even as an adult.
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And to me because of my upbringing, I really don't believe in the concept of sucide, even though on more then one occassion I've thought about it, everyone probably has. But whether its emotional pain, or physical pain, to me in the end its the same process. But in this case, the patient and the doctor disagree with the prognosis.
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Originally Posted by Daradon
EDIT x2: Sorry CC, but that one really got to me. Sick kids have the most fight in them than anyone I have ever seen. They endure pain adults call in sick about and still try and make 'the team' while hobbling around on one leg. If this one has no fight, I seriously doubt it's because he 'can't handle the pain'.
You basically told a 12 year old, recurring cancer patient to 'suck it up'.
I apologize if I went to far, it's just been such a part of my life, and I've seen so many kids battle through it too. Those who made it and those who didn't.
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In terms of the suck it up, I don't think I would tell any 12 year old or even a 40 year old to suck it up. I just don't think that the process of pulling the plug should be that easy and without a proper protocal in place.
Sorry
