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Old 04-19-2008, 12:17 AM   #41
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Look, I conceded the calls of conspiracy theory in my OP. I'm sorry I can't analyze and put forward a bulletproof plan similar to what the SPP has in motion. If you truly feel sure about the fact that something such as this would never go through, then I guess we have nothing to worry about.
I'm used to it.

This is a hot topic right now, and I think a lot is being made from this with very little substance.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:18 AM   #42
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That video is 11 minutes long, and you posted this 3 minutes after I posted it.

Dismissal without consideration, nice.
I had seen all the clips (and that compilation) before. You had posted several of them in other threads as well. If this is your "research" that jammies failed to do, I, for one, am not impressed.
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:39 AM   #43
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That video is 11 minutes long, and you posted this 3 minutes after I posted it.

Dismissal without consideration, nice.
I made it 4 minutes in.

As far as I can tell, this NAU thing is supposed to benefit, more than anyone else, multinational corporations and billionaire elite types.

Lou Dobbs is an employee of Time-Warner and Fox New is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Both those media outlets are featured prominently (at least in the first 4 minutes) in that video decrying the entire concept of the NAU.

Doesn't it seem a little strange that they'd be broadcasting that kind of material?
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Old 04-19-2008, 12:43 AM   #44
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I had seen all the clips (and that compilation) before. You had posted several of them in other threads as well. If this is your "research" that jammies failed to do, I, for one, am not impressed.
I guess my belief that the NAU has a strong chance of happening comes from the vast move towards globalization and privatization we've seen in recent years. Our governments are deregulating everything from transportation construction to water sources and supply networks. MNC's control our politics. Private corporations now hold the ability to sue our federal governments if they "infringe on the ability to make maximum profit". UPS has sued Canada Post for billions because of their postage prices (which are lower due to partial government funding). A Canadian gasoline addictive company has sued the government of California for canceling a contract for an additive found to cause cancer in children. http://www.citizen.org/documents/ACF186.PDF

Our elected officials either a)don't care about the citizens that elected them or b)have lost the power to affect change. Maybe it's both.

Another sign could be the paring of the US and Canadian Dollar. I understand it's purely speculative, but with the decoupling we are seeing between the US Dollar and world oil markets, the US needs to do something to re-standardize their currency on a world scale. Bringing in tradable commodities such and oil, water and lumber would do just that.



Short of putting forward a concise plan that our governments could possibly use to implement a NAU, I'm not sure would else to divulge.
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Old 04-19-2008, 01:07 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos View Post
I made it 4 minutes in.

As far as I can tell, this NAU thing is supposed to benefit, more than anyone else, multinational corporations and billionaire elite types.

Lou Dobbs is an employee of Time-Warner and Fox New is owned by Rupert Murdoch. Both those media outlets are featured prominently (at least in the first 4 minutes) in that video decrying the entire concept of the NAU.

Doesn't it seem a little strange that they'd be broadcasting that kind of material?
CNN disclaims the beginning of Lou Dobbs tonight with a statement saying something to the effect of "news, commentary and opinion". Dobbs is a bit of a different case when it comes to major media. I think to CNN ratings are more important than the substance Dobbs brings to his broadcasts, at least in this case. I agree though Time-Warner definitely fits the MNC pro NAU mold.
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:59 AM   #46
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Why would they give the common currency a lame name like the "Amero"? If it ever happens, it'll be called the North American Dollar.
LONG LIVE THE NAD!

Hey, Jim, did you see what the NAD is trading at today?

Ooooo, sorry, you'll have to put back those pickles, you don't have enough NADs.

Hey Buddy... can you spare a brother some NAD?

Sorry to derail the thread.
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Old 04-19-2008, 10:44 AM   #47
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I'm still waiting for the 'research....that HHH has done to prove that the US, Canadian and Mexican government could implement a NAU, without going through a democratic process.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:02 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Azure View Post
I'm still waiting for the 'research....that HHH has done to prove that the US, Canadian and Mexican government could implement a NAU, without going through a democratic process.
There is no such research, you'll be waiting forever. HHH has already admitted that the details of this "plan" are formless speculation, so I guess that question is closed.

So what this comes down now is this: on the one hand, you can worry about the shadowy conspirators behind the undemocratic NAU despite it being about as likely as my date with Christina Ricci; on the other hand you can have a beer. I know which one I'm going for.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:21 PM   #49
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There is no such research, you'll be waiting forever. HHH has already admitted that the details of this "plan" are formless speculation, so I guess that question is closed.

So what this comes down now is this: on the one hand, you can worry about the shadowy conspirators behind the undemocratic NAU despite it being about as likely as my date with Christina Ricci; on the other hand you can have a beer. I know which one I'm going for.
From Vision to Action: Institutions to Guide
Trinational Relations


Effective progress will require new institutional structures and arrange-
ments to drive the agenda and manage the deeper relationships that result.

Canada, the United States, and Mexico already share a rich network
of institutional links. A recent Canadian government study identified 343 formal treaties and thousands of informal arrangements or ‘‘light
institutions’’ with the United States alone. Mexico has more than 200
formal treaties and agreements with the United States. There are many
fewer arrangements between Canada and Mexico, but the network of
contacts is still substantial and growing.
What is needed now is a limited number of new institutions to
provide existing arrangements with greater energy and direction. To
this end, the Task Force recommends the following institutional
changes, which complement each other:

An annual North American summit meeting. There is no
more succinct or forceful way to demonstrate to the people of all
three countries the importance of the North American partnership
than to have the Mexican and American presidents and the Canadian
prime minister meet at least once a year.

• Strengthen government structures. To ensure that the summit
meetings achieve their full potential, each government must take
steps to reinforce the ability of its internal structures to deal effectively
and imaginatively with North American issues. Steps should include
strengthening links between governments, as the three leaders did
at their March meeting in Texas, by establishing minister-led working
groups that will be required to report back within ninety days, and
to meet regularly.

• A North American Advisory Council. To ensure a regular
injection of creative energy into the various efforts related to North
American integration, the three governments should appoint an
independent body of advisers. This body should be composed of
eminent persons from outside government, appointed to staggered
multiyear terms to ensure their independence. Their mandate would
be to engage in creative exploration of new ideas from a North
American perspective and to provide a public voice for North
America. A complementary approach would be to establish private
bodies that would meet regularly or annually to buttress North
American relationships, along the lines of the Bilderberg or Wehr-
kunde conferences, organized to support transatlantic relations.

• A North American Inter-Parliamentary Group. The U.S.
Congress plays a key role in American policy toward Canada and
Mexico, and conducts annual meetings with counterparts in Mexico
and in Canada. There is currently no North American program.
Bilateral inter-parliamentary exchanges can suffer from limited partic-
ipation, especially by the most influential legislators. The Task Force
recommends that the bilateral meetings occur every other year and
that the three North American partners form a trinational inter-
parliamentary group to meet in the alternating year. The North
American Advisory Council could provide an agenda and support
for these meetings. To engage senior members of the parliaments,
cabinet members could participate when the agenda matched their
area of responsibility.

http://www.cfr.org/content/publicati...a_TF_final.pdf

I will say there is some encouraging pieces in that report, including a bit about protecting national sovereignty and a more market oriented relationship as opposed to an overly bureaucratic union such as the EU.

That said, an integrated relationship that shares our resources and environmental policies should be something that worries a lot of people. Especially resources. A deepened economic structure could mean US private corporations owning our water. Not good.

Continue to dispel as you must..
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:05 PM   #50
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You jumped on jammies for not having done research on this topic, I want to read why, in your opinion, this is going to subvert 3 countries constitutions.

Con Law is not dry, but I suspect you just dont understand it... it's not an useless exercise in futility, it's critical to your argument. So please, enlighten us on (a) why you think this plan can and will be enacted, (b) how, if at all possible, this will abolish Mexico's, Canada's and the US's constitutional rights without changing the Constitutions of each country or (c) how this plan will subvert the constitutions.
Not that I'm on the bandwagon with any of this talk about the NAU, but let's also consider how easily the Americans have ammended certain parts of the US Constitution with little to no resistance. The bill goes through Congress, gets the stamp of approval. I mean, they just passed a bill that lets Canadian/American troops to cross the border uncontested and operate in each others countries, (which I think is great, personally.) Things like these, however and certain "Free Speech Zones," or the Patriot Act might be viewed as groundwork for the NAU to some tinfoil hatists. Myself not included, but nevertheless.

Furthermore, I've also heard that the Constitution will no longer start with "We the People..." but instead "We the Government..."

Again this is just what I've heard. On the internet, no less. Where everything is real.

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Old 04-19-2008, 07:22 PM   #51
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Not that I'm on the bandwagon with any of this talk about the NAU, but let's also consider how easily the Americans have ammended certain parts of the US Constitution with little to no resistance. The bill goes through Congress, gets the stamp of approval. I mean, they just passed a bill that lets Canadian/American troops to cross the border uncontested and operate in each others countries. Things like these, and certain "Free Speech Zones," or the Patriot Act might be viewed as groundwork for the NAU to some people. Myself not necessarily included, but nevertheless.

Furthermore, I've also heard that the Constitution will no longer start with "We the People..." but instead "We the Government..."

Again this is just what I've heard. On the internet, no less. Where everything is real.
A proposed Constitution amendment requires 2/3rd approval of both houses of Congress and hasnt been done since 1992 (27th Amend.). So really, the Americans havent simple amended certain parts of their constitution recently and Congress has not just rubber stamped it. Considering there has been 27 amendments to date, I doubt Congress would just rubber stamp another one - it would be HUGE news, and in todays political climate, highly contested.

Changing the start of the Constitution from "We the people..." to "We the government..." is so laughable it's not worth discussing. That would cut to the very core of American values and the US's view on their society. Remember what the US was founded on. Are you sure the internet source wasnt a parody or "theOnion.com"?

Finally, HHH has mentioned either in his words, but more commonly via news clippings or youtube compilations that Canada, the US and Mexico are putting together a North American Court that would supersede the Supreme Court of the US (SCOTUS) as well as the Canadian SC and Mexican... whatever they have. This is simply BS... The SCOTUS has stated that nothing done by treaty (which is what this is) that could not be done by statute, and also strikes down both treaties and statues that violate Article III of the US Constitution. Article III states, specifically, that all judicial power is vested in SCOTUS and anything that attempts to override that vested power would be declared per se invalid.

Conspiracy theorists and university students inspired by their paranoid professors are the only two that think this thing has legit legs. I suspect there is an effort to increase trade relations between CA-US-MEX to compete on a world scale, but the sky-is-falling types are taking this to mean the end of everything as we know it in North America.
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:28 PM   #52
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Sorry to derail the thread.
The thread was derailed in the first post.
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:30 PM   #53
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The thread was derailed in the first post.
Yup... I believe this is thread #6 on the proposed, and in some poster's minds, imminent arrival of the NAU and the Amero.

This needs to go away until something substantive happens... which doesnt mean a new report from Dobbs or a new article from a fringe journalist group.
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Old 04-19-2008, 07:48 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Clever_Iggy View Post
Yup... I believe this is thread #6 on the proposed, and in some poster's minds, imminent arrival of the NAU and the Amero.

This needs to go away until something substantive happens... which doesnt mean a new report from Dobbs or a new article from a fringe journalist group.
The same Obama who supposedly supports the NUA.

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Old 04-19-2008, 07:52 PM   #55
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The same Obama who supposedly supports the NUA.

Isnt he against NAFTA? I cant keep things straight with either of the Dem candidates now.
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:05 PM   #56
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Clever_Iggy, this post is for you.

This is your statement:
Quote:
This is simply BS... The SCOTUS has stated that nothing done by treaty (which is what this is) that could not be done by statute, and also strikes down both treaties and statues that violate Article III of the US Constitution. Article III states, specifically, that all judicial power is vested in SCOTUS and anything that attempts to override that vested power would be declared per se invalid.
Your confidence in SCOTUS is great. You appear unconcerned that anything attempting to undermine the US constitution would be shot down by the Supreme Court.

This is interesting, if not incorrect. SCOTUS rulings have already been challenged by private corporations in the NAFTA tribunal...Successfully.

Tribunals like the one that ruled on the Massachusetts case were created by the North American Free Trade Agreement, and they have heard two challenges to American court judgments. In the other, the tribunal declared a Mississippi court's judgment at odds with international law, leaving the United States government potentially liable for hundreds of millions of dollars.

Any Canadian or Mexican business that contends it has been treated unjustly by the American judicial system can file a similar claim. American businesses with similar complaints about Canadian or Mexican court judgments can do the same. Under the Nafta agreement the government whose court system is challenged is responsible for awards by the tribunals.

''This is the biggest threat to United States judicial independence that no one has heard of and even fewer people understand,'' said John D. Echeverria, a law professor at Georgetown University.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...57C0A9629C8B63

I look forward to reading your interpretation of these NAFTA rulings.
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Old 04-19-2008, 08:26 PM   #57
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Interesting article... from 2004.

The NAFTA tribunal interpreting Chapter 11 of NAFTA is troubling as the provision was created without really understanding the potential longterm effects of it. Obviously an oversight.

However, you said:

Quote:
This is interesting, if not incorrect. SCOTUS rulings have already been challenged by private corporations in the NAFTA tribunal...Successfully.
Where exactly does the article say that a Supreme Court of the United States decision had been challenged successfully? I'll show you:

Page 1; Paragraph 1:
Quote:
After the highest court in Massachusetts ruled against a Canadian real estate company and after the United State Supreme Court declined to hear its appeal.
Page 1; Paragraph 7:
Quote:
In the Massachusetts case, brought by Mondev International, the Nafta tribunal decided in 2002 that the Massachusetts courts had not violated international law.
Page 1; Paragraph 8:
Quote:
But in a separate pending case, brought by a Canadian company challenging the largest jury verdict in Mississippi history, a different Nafta tribunal offered a harsh assessment of Mississippi justice.
Page 1; Paragraphs 12-13:
Quote:
The availability of this additional layer of review, above even the United States Supreme Court, is a significant development, legal scholars said.

''It's basically been under the radar screen,'' Peter Spiro, a law professor at Hofstra University, said. ''But it points to a fundamental reorientation of our constitutional system. You have an international tribunal essentially reviewing American court judgments.''
The author of the article, reached here as Spiro never stated the Supreme Court decisions are in jeopardy because, well as I stated in my previous post regarding Article III of the Constitution, they are not.

As you can see, the SCOTUS has not been circumvented in either of these cases. Those are STATE supreme courts and last I checked, they didnt have one of the 3 branches of the US government vested in them.

This discussion is going down the sewer because when you get challenged to backup your opinions you say that "the situation is too grey to make a prediction" and then default back to old articles, youtube videos, etc... Or you say that the Constitutional argument isnt necessary or you ride on the poster who challenges you.

Maybe next week when you start a thread about 9/11, the Amero, the NAU or Obama being genealogically linked to Christ, we can start it up again... and there will be a new youtube video.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:18 PM   #58
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As you can see, the SCOTUS has not been circumvented in either of these cases. Those are STATE supreme courts and last I checked, they didnt have one of the 3 branches of the US government vested in them.
So as long as these tribunal cases stay at a state level, the constitution is being upheld? I'm not sure how comforting that is.

You are right though, those rulings were not made in the SCOTUS...My bad.
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Old 04-19-2008, 09:52 PM   #59
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This needs to go away until something substantive happens... which doesnt mean a new report from Dobbs or a new article from a fringe journalist group.

This.


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Old 04-20-2008, 09:19 AM   #60
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I have been fortunate enough to spend several weeks in Mexico over the past few years, in 5 different states. The general feeling I get from the people, as well as just from my own experience is that Mexico is a country with a future. There is a lot going for it and I feel there is a lot of opportunity here for Canadians. It's a pretty open country and full of industrious people... the stereotype of the "lazy Mexican" is way off the mark imo.

I feel that bringing Mexico and Canada closer together will be a good thing for both countries.
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