Klein wants Referendum

[Claeren]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 11 2004, 03:33 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 11 2004, 03:33 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Claeren@Dec 11 2004, 03:19 AM
Because 'HATE' is illegal in this country.

Okay. I'm still working on this logic of your's. Who hates who? [/b][/quote]
Why do i even bother sometimes....

Of course, being the type of person you are, you said what i have quoted but said this only moments before:

You realize, of course, if the gay community hadn't made such a big spectacle of the whole issue nobody would have given a damn what two men did to get their jollies in the privacy of their own home. Why does the gay community insist on forcing their way on normal society?

It is only one blurb but it sums it all up. You think YOU are so high and mighty that you and your god get to decide for everyone else. And even sillier, when things don't go your way you insist it is everyone else hating YOU and your god, even though what they are advocating WILL NOT EFFECT YOU.

It makes no sense.


The hate topic is quasi-seperated from our discussion though, as is obvious up until this point just by following the thread...

Claeren.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Claeren+Dec 11 2004, 03:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Claeren @ Dec 11 2004, 03:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Okay. I'm still working on this logic of your's. Who hates who?

Why do i even bother sometimes....

Of course, being the type of person you are, you said what i have quoted but said this only moments before:

You realize, of course, if the gay community hadn't made such a big spectacle of the whole issue nobody would have given a damn what two men did to get their jollies in the privacy of their own home. Why does the gay community insist on forcing their way on normal society?

It is only one blurb but it sums it all up. You think YOU are so high and mighty that you and your god get to decide for everyone else. And even sillier, when things don't go your way you insist it is everyone else hating YOU and your god, even though what they are advocating WILL NOT EFFECT YOU.

It makes no sense.


The hate topic is quasi-seperated from our discussion though, as is obvious up until this point just by following the thread...

Claeren.[/b][/quote]
How is that hate? Even if I were to make a statement like: "How can two men, participating in an activity meant replenish the human species here on earth, be called normal by the rest of society?" Please explain where the "hate" is in that statement.

I'm not sure you understand the meaning of hate.

[Claeren]

I was talking about hate based service refussel with someone else and you brought it up. I addressed it within the context of your views but for all intensive purposes the points being made about hate were beyond the scope of our conversation.

I said as much at the end of my post.


I understand what hate is, i also understand that you are disguising your hate and discomfort behind some sort of false legitmacy based on some sort of belief in the need for protection for people from a threat, the threat being gayness, and the actual harm still not communicated to us.

Racists in the southern USA (and else where) still do this, not to mention years ago. They said that they didn't want blacks in schools with whites not because they hate blacks but because 'it is just not right', or 'it is just not natural', or 'those blacks may corrupt the poor white children.' The arguements are just as lame and based on hate and prejudice as yours. You know to frame your contempt for gays within certain perameters to be taken seriously but the message behind your words is the same....

Claeren.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 11 2004, 06:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 11 2004, 06:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Flaming Homer@Dec 10 2004, 11:03 PM
I disagree because men shouldn't be with men, but as long as some guy isn't trying to hit on me (which is asking for a trip to the hospital) he can do however he pleases. And I don't have a problem with the gays either. It's just the fact of being gay that I disagree with.

I've always wondered about this one. What makes you so anxious about a man trying to hit on you that you would violently attack him? Would you do the same if an unattractive woman was hitting on you?

I would understand if the guy is physically aggressive or really pushy that's one thing, but if some dude asks for your phone number or offers to buy you a drink would you really assault and beat him? If so, why? [/b][/quote]
I'm not saying if some guy just hit's on me I'd attack him right away. I'm just saying If I say "I'm not gay" and this guy continues than he's asking for it. I'm not meaning to be stereotypical but the really FAR OUT of the closet gays really make me uncomfortable the ones he dress like women and run around singing in those parades. I'm not saying they can't have a parade. Basically they guy would have to continue for me to attack him.

[Patek23]

Originally posted by Faid1+Dec 11 2004, 07:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Faid1 @ Dec 11 2004, 07:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I disagree because men shouldn't be with men, but as long as some guy isn't trying to hit on me (which is asking for a trip to the hospital) he can do however he pleases. And I don't have a problem with the gays either. It's just the fact of being gay that I disagree with.

Sounds like you're a wee bit homophobic to me. You have a problem with two gay men but I doubt you have a problem with two (hot) lesbians. [/b][/quote]
I actually don't support lesbians either if thats what you arsking.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Flaming Homer+Dec 11 2004, 10:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Flaming Homer @ Dec 11 2004, 10:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

I've always wondered about this one. What makes you so anxious about a man trying to hit on you that you would violently attack him? Would you do the same if an unattractive woman was hitting on you?

I would understand if the guy is physically aggressive or really pushy that's one thing, but if some dude asks for your phone number or offers to buy you a drink would you really assault and beat him? If so, why?

I'm not saying if some guy just hit's on me I'd attack him right away. I'm just saying If I say "I'm not gay" and this guy continues than he's asking for it. I'm not meaning to be stereotypical but the really FAR OUT of the closet gays really make me uncomfortable the ones he dress like women and run around singing in those parades. I'm not saying they can't have a parade. Basically they guy would have to continue for me to attack him. [/b][/quote]
Okay fair enough -- if someone is persistently harassing you then I can understand throwing a punch. Sort of like when a straight guy persistently harasses you about money or looking at his girlfriend, eventually you might want to clobber him.

I've heard this line of reasoning -- the "they can do what they want but if they hit on me then look out" many times and I find it confusing still. It certainly has never happened to me and I don't know anyone it has happened to. I've never heard of a gay man persistently harassing and pestering a straight man who has refused his advances yet there is still the macho attitude and vague "I'll show them" sentiment.

I've only seen one cross-dresser in my life in I'll sheepishly admit that I found it quite strange but he didn't make me uncomfortable. I've never seen a gay pride parade in person so I can't comment on that.

The jist of this post is basically "where is all this aggressive, flamboyant homosexual behavior taking place that makes anyone uncomfortable? I don't see it. Where do you see it?"

The only gay guy that ever hit on me was a fat guy about 20 years my senior driving a rented Dodge Dynasty. The only real emotion I got out of it was being insulted. Look fatty, if I'm gonna swing that way it sure as hell wouldn't be with you.

I don't live in the country or restrict myself to church meetings. I've met and I know many gay people and as far as I could tell the only difference was that they like to kiss boys (or girls, as the case may be). And they dress better.

[Resolute 14]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Dec 11 2004, 11:49 AM
The jist of this post is basically "where is all this aggressive, flamboyant homosexual behavior taking place that makes anyone uncomfortable? I don't see it. Where do you see it?"

Gay pride parades. I think more than anything, gay pride parades are what holds the gay community back.

While I haven't known many gay people, those that I do know, and those I know of are normal, simple people. They dont stick out in any way.

But when you see people dress and act like freaks in these parades - and they are always the ones that get on camera, not the two normal women in the back holding hands quietly - that is the image that gets presented to the world of what gay people "are like."

It's like rebelious teens who wear spikes, have purple mohawks and have 100 body piercings. They are trying to make the people around them uncomfortable, and often succeed. Though the irony is that the gay advocacy groups want people to be comfortable with their place in society, yet allow those parades to happen...

[RougeUnderoos]

Well I guess if you are uncomfortable with flamboyant homosexual behaviour then you will have to keep yourself away from one street, one afternoon, once a year.

How dare they push their agenda on me between 1pm and 3pm on Saturday, November 16th on 8th Avenue!

[Resolute 14]

That's not the point, and I think you know it.

You asked where this image comes from, I offered an opinion. Flamboyancy, and the desire to be a freak from 1-3PM one saturday a year is all well and good, but the entire point of any demonstration is to raise awareness of an issue or to prove a point.

IMO, the true purpose of gay pride demonstrations is wiped out by these "flamboyant" people.

People of all cultures and orientations can and do act the same, though most do it in private clubs, or private homes. Such things are considered deviant by "normal society", and most practitioners have no problem with it being treated as such, and prefer to keep it quiet. Afterall, if your company's VP of finance has a vamipirism fetish, I'm sure he would rather that be kept in private than to reveal such an attitude to the world. It would destroy the image he has built up for himself within society, and have a detrimental impact on his life and future.

This is the same thing, IMO. I have no problem with people in these parades acting as they do. Afterall, they are breaking no laws, and for the most part are just enjoying themselves and having fun. More power to them. But, while they do this, they are also reinforcing negative images and stereotypes in the minds of people, and I believe that that serves to defeat the entire purpose of the parade to begin with. They act to destroy the image that the gay community wants to create: That yes, they are indeed normal, every day, human beings.

[habernac]

I'm so proud to be a redneck Albertan. Ralph, you have much more important stuff to worry about.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Snakeeye@Dec 11 2004, 12:16 PM
That's not the point, and I think you know it.

You asked where this image comes from, I offered an opinion. Flamboyancy, and the desire to be a freak from 1-3PM one saturday a year is all well and good, but the entire point of any demonstration is to raise awareness of an issue or to prove a point.

IMO, the true purpose of gay pride demonstrations is wiped out by these "flamboyant" people.

People of all cultures and orientations can and do act the same, though most do it in private clubs, or private homes. Such things are considered deviant by "normal society", and most practitioners have no problem with it being treated as such, and prefer to keep it quiet. Afterall, if your company's VP of finance has a vamipirism fetish, I'm sure he would rather that be kept in private than to reveal such an attitude to the world. It would destroy the image he has built up for himself within society, and have a detrimental impact on his life and future.

This is the same thing, IMO. I have no problem with people in these parades acting as they do. Afterall, they are breaking no laws, and for the most part are just enjoying themselves and having fun. More power to them. But, while they do this, they are also reinforcing negative images and stereotypes in the minds of people, and I believe that that serves to defeat the entire purpose of the parade to begin with. They act to destroy the image that the gay community wants to create: That yes, they are indeed normal, every day, human beings.

Well you were right about one thing -- I totally missed the point. Not on purpose though, honest.

In other words, I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying. Sort of. I mean if you say all that wild behavior defeats the purpose of the parade to begin with in your eyes then I can't argue that. It makes sense.

I've never thought about what the purpose was in the first place and I don't see much of the flamboyant behavior on the news because I always change the channel when they get to the fat guy in the leather chaps lol.

[snowdude]

It's stupid to allow the majority to decide the rights of a minority, leads to way to many problems...IE) Japanese internment in WWII, Women not "persons" until a court battle, Segregation.....


Once again proving Ralph has lost his touch

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 11 2004, 02:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 11 2004, 02:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

What a fine example of the new, more tolerant society we're establishing!

In other words: "I don't care what your world-view is, just do things my way or you're out of here."

It's got nothing to do with a new tolerant society. People who refuse to do their job generally don't get to keep their job.

If issuing marriage licenses is your job and you don't issue marriage licenses then you should be fired. Do you disagree? [/b][/quote]
Yes.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally posted by habernac@Dec 11 2004, 01:19 PM
I'm so proud to be a redneck Albertan. Ralph, you have much more important stuff to worry about.

No doubt. Careful Ralph, if you allow gay marriage people might think you yourself are gay.

What a clown.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Sammie+Dec 11 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Sammie @ Dec 11 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

It's got nothing to do with a new tolerant society. People who refuse to do their job generally don't get to keep their job.

If issuing marriage licenses is your job and you don't issue marriage licenses then you should be fired. Do you disagree?

Yes. [/b][/quote]
Do you work for Canada Post?

Thats the only outfit I can think of that pays employees to do nothing.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Claeren@Dec 11 2004, 04:41 AM
I was talking about hate based service refussel with someone else and you brought it up. I addressed it within the context of your views but for all intensive purposes the points being made about hate were beyond the scope of our conversation.

I said as much at the end of my post.


I understand what hate is, i also understand that you are disguising your hate and discomfort behind some sort of false legitmacy based on some sort of belief in the need for protection for people from a threat, the threat being gayness, and the actual harm still not communicated to us.

Racists in the southern USA (and else where) still do this, not to mention years ago. They said that they didn't want blacks in schools with whites not because they hate blacks but because 'it is just not right', or 'it is just not natural', or 'those blacks may corrupt the poor white children.' The arguements are just as lame and based on hate and prejudice as yours. You know to frame your contempt for gays within certain perameters to be taken seriously but the message behind your words is the same....

Claeren.

What I'm understanding is that if I disagree with, and don't accept, anything you say or believe in I MUST be filled with hate. As far as you're concern the majority must cease, desist, and assimilate with the few or we're ALL hateful people. In my opinion, there's something backwards about this kind of logic.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos+Dec 11 2004, 03:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (RougeUnderoos @ Dec 11 2004, 03:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Yes.

Do you work for Canada Post?

Thats the only outfit I can think of that pays employees to do nothing.[/b][/quote]
Really? I don't see too many unemployed pastors and a majority of them have turned down more than a few marriage requests from certain couples. They're interested in seeing marriages last a lifetime. It's a biblical thing.

[Savvy27]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 11 2004, 10:06 PM
What I'm understanding is that if I disagree with, and don't accept, anything you say or believe in I MUST be filled with hate. As far as you're concern the majority must cease, desist, and assimilate with the few or we're ALL hateful people. In my opinion, there's something backwards about this kind of logic.

It's something that will have no impact on you and your rights. So your refusing a right that you already enjoy. All gay people are doing is asking for this same right, thats why your viewed as hateful.

Explain why two gay people being married is going to be a detriment to your way of life and you might get some sympathy for your 'majority', but until then its gonna look like your just worried that the gays will turn you or people you know gay.

Or I guess that maybe God will rain down fire and brimstone... but if that hasn't happened yet, I doubt He's gonna get too worked up over this.

[Daradon]

Originally posted by Sammie@Dec 11 2004, 03:13 AM
POLITICAL CORRECTNESS ALERT!!!

Translation: "You SHALL assimulate or cease to exist!"

Is this your only 'argument' left Sammie? You seem to be repeating it fairly often. In other threads too.

It's not about forcing someone to believe or act or do or feel anything. In fact, it's the opposite, it's making sure the current rules don't, which they do now.

No one is telling you, or other Christians, or people opposed to gay marriage to like it, and your fine to voice your dissent. They are just saying that the laws for society shouldn't be based on outdated or relgious viewpoints. They are trying to make things fair and equal for everyone.

I don't mind anyone speaking out against it, but to suggest we are trying to 'assimilate' is crazy. We're just updating a law. You don't have to like it, but we can't base laws and freedoms on what a old book that only portion of the population even believes, or a viewpoint that is exclusive of other people.

It's the original rule that was trying to 'assimilate' by excluding people or saying it was wrong. We're changing that, so it's the opposite really.

And I also find it very ironic that someone coming from a Christian background is accusing others of trying to 'assimilate' culture. Christianity has probably the WORST track record for that. Pagan cultures in the thrid century onward, (no not the Christian definition of pagan, but the true one, if you don't know what that is I suggest you read a little) other religions during the crusades, scientists like Galileo, modern wiccans and people of other faiths, (or anyone even suspected of being one)
women in general THROUGHOUT history. Minorities, gays, the list goes on and on.

If there is one organiation guilty of tryng to 'assimilate' it's the Christian/Catholic/whatever church.

[Sammie]

Originally posted by Savvy27+Dec 11 2004, 04:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Savvy27 @ Dec 11 2004, 04:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Sammie@Dec 11 2004, 10:06 PM
What I'm understanding is that if I disagree with, and don't accept, anything you say or believe in I# MUST be filled with hate. As far as you're concern the majority must cease, desist, and assimilate with the few or we're ALL hateful people. In my opinion, there's something backwards about this kind of logic.

It's something that will have no impact on you and your rights. So your refusing a right that you already enjoy. All gay people are doing is asking for this same right, thats why your viewed as hateful.

Explain why two gay people being married is going to be a detriment to your way of life and you might get some sympathy for your 'majority', but until then its gonna look like your just worried that the gays will turn you or people you know gay.

Or I guess that maybe God will rain down fire and brimstone... but if that hasn't happened yet, I doubt He's gonna get too worked up over this.[/b][/quote]
If they want to pretend their relationship is a normal relationship, let them pretend. If they want to pretend to be married, go to a pretend church and pretend to be married. Just leave the majority of people, who believe there is a deeper spiritual relevance to marriage and life, out of this folly.

Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, almost every religious group takes exception to same-sex relationships. The point of marriage and very act of sex is to reproduce the species. The commitment to marriage also includes a commitment to raising children resulting from that relationship. The commitment to family and bringing up children under established norms is very important to most parents, unfortunately it's very existence is presently under attack by a certain small segment of society.

What kind of of society are we creating? Nobody seems to bother to think what will happen to a society when all its norms and values are destroyed and replaced to "please" the "rights" of every small minority in that society. Why are we throwing out the baby with the bath water just to please a minority of the gay community who want to be married?

Tell me. What's the point of life?