Alright, let's Address the Olympic Torch Relay

[Fozzie_DeBear]

An interesting article on the topic

[mykalberta]

Does anyone know the whole Dali Lama history?

I have reserved judgement on the issue because I think we get a fairly biased opinion over here.

From the actual Chinese poeple I talk to they think of the Dali Lama as a cult. Would be nice to know the history to make up your own mind rather than be force fed BS from Richard Grere or the Chinese Ambassador.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's not ok for anyone to be attacked, the Olympics should transcend politics. I bet half these people crying about China have "Made in China" products in their houses.

Protesting the events that celebrate the spirit of the games is stupid in my opinion. If you want effective protest go against the corporations that are flooding billions of dollars into China to sponsor.

Tell that to Jesse Owens.

Sadly I don't buy that the Olympics transend politics. As soon as you open the Pandora's box of inviting the world and the worlds media to your country, then you have to live with the fall out of it.

In a lot of ways, I'm betting that the Free Tibet and the media absolutely partied when the Olympics in China were announced. When China invited the world, they gave the opening on that world soapbox for the laundrey to be aired internationally.

If the Chinese didn't want the blow back, they shouldn't have applied for the Olympics.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by fotze

Well the many and varied human rights abuses (and the sheer severity of them) are a bigger concern to me than poor Mr. Icanruninacirclefast or Mr. Icanjumpveryfar, but that's just me.

So punishing athletes = bad, punishing fictional wheelchair torch guy = good?

Nice! Good point. Haha ... well, I'd say again that it's not the athlete's fault that the Olympics are being held in Beijing, but then again, if they are participating there, then they might be as "complicit" or responsible for anything that befalls them as the torch bearers ... at the same time, I'm sure the intent of those protesting was not to attack wheelchair guy, but rather to protest China's human rights record. Doesn't excuse the fact that a guy in a wheelchair got attacked.

[mmanzz]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's not ok for anyone to be attacked, the Olympics should transcend politics. I bet half these people crying about China have "Made in China" products in their houses.

Protesting the events that celebrate the spirit of the games is stupid in my opinion. If you want effective protest go against the corporations that are flooding billions of dollars into China to sponsor.

Well, by protesting the games you are protesting "corporations flooding millions of dollars into China". Corporations like: Coca-Cola, Samsung and McDonalds". see below:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23712630/

Its funny that these sponsors are among the most vehement supporters of keep sports and politics separate.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's not ok for anyone to be attacked, the Olympics should transcend politics. I bet half these people crying about China have "Made in China" products in their houses.

Protesting the events that celebrate the spirit of the games is stupid in my opinion. If you want effective protest go against the corporations that are flooding billions of dollars into China to sponsor.

Maybe they SHOULD transcend politics but they don't. Let's face it, the IOC did not award the Olympics to China for completely apolitical reasons.

[rubecube]

The only thing that transcends anything is money. That's why the broadcast stations also won't have the sack to boycott broadcasting the Olympics, which would also send a message. I'm thinking of sending a letter to my MP to advise that I don't particularily like the idea that my tax dollars are funding the CBC's spread of Chinese propaganda.

[Antithesis]

Originally Posted by fotze

I agree with you but I just felt I had to poke a hole in your argument.

Must ... resist ... fotze ... poking ... joke ....

[GirlySports]

I've read this thread with great interest all morning. But upon further review I think you all are making this stuff up. The torch relay is running extremely smoothly and everything is fine in Tibet.

http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/...14296388.shtml

http://www.china.org.cn/2008-04/09/content_14683096.htm

Firstly, the countries on the relay route have attached great importance and given strong support to the Olympic flame.

Secondly, all Torch Relay cities have given strong support for the event.

Thirdly, the Olympic torch has received a warm welcome worldwide.

Fourthly, athletes from all over the world have joined the Beijing Olympic torch relay with great enthusiasm.

[Hakan]

I would love to see a boycott of these games. Possibly the West's best way to leverage China over some pretty stubborn trade policies that they have.

Not to mention egregious human rights abuses of religious minorities there.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I've read this thread with great interest all morning. But upon further review I think you all are making this stuff up. The torch relay is running extremely smoothly and everything is fine in Tibet.

http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/...14296388.shtml

http://www.china.org.cn/2008-04/09/content_14683096.htm

Firstly, the countries on the relay route have attached great importance and given strong support to the Olympic flame.

Secondly, all Torch Relay cities have given strong support for the event.

Thirdly, the Olympic torch has received a warm welcome worldwide.

Fourthly, athletes from all over the world have joined the Beijing Olympic torch relay with great enthusiasm.

HA!

"There have never been any torch relay protests....and they are condemned!" - Baghded Bob Wang Hui

[mmanzz]

Great post GirlySports! The Chinese Government needs to hire the Original, the one and only: Iraqi Information Minister!

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/

[Phaneuf3]

Originally Posted by mykalberta

Does anyone know the whole Dali Lama history?

I have reserved judgement on the issue because I think we get a fairly biased opinion over here.

From the actual Chinese poeple I talk to they think of the Dali Lama as a cult. Would be nice to know the history to make up your own mind rather than be force fed BS from Richard Grere or the Chinese Ambassador.

I was beaten to it but.... this:

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I've read this thread with great interest all morning. But upon further review I think you all are making this stuff up. The torch relay is running extremely smoothly and everything is fine in Tibet.

http://torchrelay.beijing2008.cn/en/...14296388.shtml

http://www.china.org.cn/2008-04/09/content_14683096.htm

Firstly, the countries on the relay route have attached great importance and given strong support to the Olympic flame.

Secondly, all Torch Relay cities have given strong support for the event.

Thirdly, the Olympic torch has received a warm welcome worldwide.

Fourthly, athletes from all over the world have joined the Beijing Olympic torch relay with great enthusiasm.

i don't doubt that the side we get from our media may be slightly skewed but not nearly to the level of what the chinese media is putting out there.

[transplant99]

OK I completely understand why people are protesting, and agree with why they are doing so.

BUT

Snuffing the symbol for peace that the torch represents? Kind of oxymoronish if you ask me.

Anyhow...I hope one of these ######bags breaks through the barriers today as Herschel Walker (yes that one) carries the torch thru SF...he has been training for MMA and stated on radio this morning he needs some "practice"....LOL!!

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Tell that to Jesse Owens.

Sadly I don't buy that the Olympics transend politics. As soon as you open the Pandora's box of inviting the world and the worlds media to your country, then you have to live with the fall out of it.

In a lot of ways, I'm betting that the Free Tibet and the media absolutely partied when the Olympics in China were announced. When China invited the world, they gave the opening on that world soapbox for the laundrey to be aired internationally.

If the Chinese didn't want the blow back, they shouldn't have applied for the Olympics.

I bet China thought they could sweep all that ugly stuff under the carpet and no one would notice. Basically what they have been doing in the past. But with the whole world looking at China they aren't going to ignore it anymore.

However I do agree that boycotting the Olympics isn't fair for the athletes. Everything that China has been doing isn't new, this didn't just come to light. World leaders are well aware of what is happening in China. They have had plenty of time to do something about it and they haven't. Boycotting the Olympics seems like a really odd course of action. It would be like if you knew your neighbour beat his wife, but the only thing you did about it was not show up at his annual BBQ.

[troutman]

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...BAD4101QFL.DTL

Mayor Gavin Newsom said Monday that the protests in Paris and London would result in changes in San Francisco's plans for the flame when 80 runners carry it through the city's streets. The route could change even during Wednesday's run, he said.

Police said security plans would include having officers run alongside torchbearers to protect them and the flame from any protesters who might try to disrupt the run.

"I like to think in San Francisco we know how to do a protest," Perry said. "Here in San Francisco, we're not the type to jump on people in a wheelchair to try to snuff out the flame."

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/04/09/tor...est/index.html

Thousands of demonstrators descended on San Francisco on Wednesday, the day of the Olympic Torch run, with one side waving Tibetan flags to protest the Beijing Olympics and the other brandishing Chinese flags in support.

In the early hours Wednesday, busloads of Beijing Olympics supporters, dressed in red and waving Chinese flags, arrived and assembled near the city's McCovey Cove, six hours before the torch run was scheduled to start there.

Footage from CNN affiliate KGO showed demonstrators in white "Team Tibet" T-shirts gathered across the narrow street shouting slogans. Their counterparts shouted back, but the situation remained peaceful as police stood between the groups.

Watch live:

http://www.kron.com/

http://cbs5.com/ [2:00 pm MDT]

http://abclocal.go.com/kgo/feature?s...ews&id=6069106

The Golden Gate Bridge is packed with people on the pedestrian side on a peace march.

[Slava]

I don't think that there should be a boycott. I understand that there are human rights abuses and there are issues with Tibet. The thing is that the human rights abuses existed when the IOC gave the games to China, so you can't go back on that decision now.

As far as Tibet goes the Dalai Lama has said that he doesn't think people should boycott...so that is good enough for me.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Slava

I don't think that there should be a boycott. I understand that there are human rights abuses and there are issues with Tibet. The thing is that the human rights abuses existed when the IOC gave the games to China, so you can't go back on that decision now.

As far as Tibet goes the Dalai Lama has said that he doesn't think people should boycott...so that is good enough for me.

Unfortunately, I don't think its that simple. China has always been fairly secretive when it comes to their internal workings, stories slipped out about the organ harvesting. The execution of prisoners, and even the Tibet movement has been middle of the paper stuff, because even though we know its been going on, they've done a good job of allowing the media to transmit proof.

As soon as China opened these doors by showing a willingness to host the Olympics you just knew that all of these grievances were going to pop up, especially the Tibet issue. It might be ok for the Dalai Lama to go against the Boycott, however the Tibetien (sp?) community got a rare opportunity to make this front line news. Combine this with China's stupid and clumsy way of handling this up to and including using their own internal intelligence organs to stir this up so they could brutally put it down, and you've got an angry international movement thats going to leverage China's Olympic movement to call attention to the plight in Tibet.

Combine that with China's inexperience in dealing with accredited international journalists who can now demand access to everything, and an international community that was ineffective in handling other nations human rights issues and you have a massive powder keg waiting to go off in China's face and embarress them badly.

Which I think is going to happen. Like I mentioned my bet is that there are going to be podium protests, there are going to be athletes that don't show up for the opening ceremony.

China should have negotiated something with Tibet when they won the Olympics instead of merely beating them and shooting them.

Now their deplorable record is truly exposed and out there.

So while the Olympics are not suppossed to be political, they can certainly be used to push forward a political agenda.

[mmanzz]

Clearly, when looking at the clips on CBS5 in San Francisco, the REDS have mobilized a significantly vocal and threatening group. Its probably being manipulated by agents in the CCP consulate in San Fransisco. Extremely well organized and unified group.

[troutman]

abc - "some shouting matches . . . peaceful"

lots of police in riot gear along the route

abc - "route has been shortened"

opening statement at McCovey Cove