Club Fined for Banning Man Based on Race

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Matata

I never implied any of the things you've accused me of. I just described the situation in terms of business logic, probability and investment. If your going to attack my post, bring up statistics and business strategy.

I couldn't help but notice that the media wouldn't mention the cause of this problem, and I believe the most likely scenario is the one I described in my first post. People like their easily digestible 'racism is bad' news stories, but bringing up the cause opens up a hole new can of worms that always invokes the ire of screeching, one-dimensional moral crusauders like yourself.

I would suggest that business strategy would consider the application of any relevant laws to their particular business model. The Alberta Human Rights, Citizenship and Multiculturalism Act (HRCMA) has application to clubs such as Tequila and requires them to not deny services based on any of the protected grounds.

I agree that maintaining a safe environment for staff and clients is (or should be) a priority for business owners. In fact, it's probably required by law. Club owners in particular have tried other means to increase the safety of their establishments by, for example, instituting the ID scanning system. Preventing people that tend to be associated with gang violence and bar stabbings based, in part, on their race may also be part of that strategy.

However, the desire to maintain a safe environment and fulfill that legal obligation can't be at the expense of other legal obligations. In other words, you shouldn't be able to trample on someone's HRCMA rights or privacy rights for the sake of another set of rights or responsibilities. There has to be a solution that respects all of these requirements. The ID scanning policy didn't do this. Keeping people out of your club based on race or other similar factors doesn't do this either.

[Thunderball]

Discrimination re goods, services, accommodation, facilities
4 No person shall
(a) deny to any person or class of persons any goods, services, accommodation or facilities that are customarily available to the public, or
(b) discriminate against any person or class of persons with respect to any goods, services, accommodation or facilities that are customarily available to the public,
because of the race, religious beliefs, colour, gender, physical disability, mental disability, ancestry, place of origin, marital status, source of income or family status of that person or class of persons or of any other person or class of persons.

Interesting that its cool to discriminate based on age. I guess its alright to only let certain age groups in, and shun other adult ages because they're too old, or too young and likely to not spend enough.

Also interesting that it appears that it would be illegal to discriminate against someone not dressed nice enough, since that might be discriminating against their class level, in this case, income class.

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of racists, but I think entry to seedy, crappy clubs is not really worth the effort when there's much better avenues to explore.

[burn_this_city]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. I thought sikh's are forbidden to drink.
2. Shouldnt a private establishment be allowed to decide who gets in and who doesn't.

Sikh's drink, the completely devote ones don't, but most still do..

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by fotze

Sleepy from the roids?

Sleepy cause I have to get up at 5:30am to go to the gym.

[Matata]

Originally Posted by fredr123

.....However, the desire to maintain a safe environment and fulfill that legal obligation can't be at the expense of other legal obligations. In other words, you shouldn't be able to trample on someone's HRCMA rights or privacy rights for the sake of another set of rights or responsibilities. There has to be a solution that respects all of these requirements. The ID scanning policy didn't do this.Keeping people out of your club based on race or other similar factors doesn't do this either.

This is the million dollar question isn't it? I doubt there has been any serious studies done on Calgary bars on the relation between ethnicity and violence, but based on what I've learnt from my mom (a wise, unbiased nurse) its the Asians who end up in the ER. I think a club owner wouldn't take very long to see this correlation and be forced to make a hard decision.

Good post.

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by Matata

This is the million dollar question isn't it? I doubt there has been any serious studies done on Calgary bars on the relation between ethnicity and violence, but based on what I've learnt from my mom (a wise, unbiased nurse) its the Asians who end up in the ER. I think a club owner wouldn't take very long to see this correlation and be forced to make a hard decision.

Good post.

You know back in elementary school when one of your classmates would pee in the sandbox and then the teacher would take away the sandbox privileges for the entire class? That's a classic example of one person's stupid actions ruining it for everyone. On some level, that seems to be what you are implying above. Because some Asians end up in the ER, all Asians will be barred entry from clubs. Some Asians have peed in the sandbox so all Asians will henceforth be barred from playing in said sandbox.

There are plenty of examples where the actions of one have consequences for others in our society. Car insurance comes to mind (but that's a discussion for another thread). But - and here's the rub - you simply cannot make that differentiation based on a ground that is protected by human rights legislation. Race is one such ground and so it would be absolutely unjust to prevent entry to these clubs for all Asians even if 100% of all victims of stab wounds encountered at the ER were in fact Asians.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Muta

Haha, Tequila sucks anyway.

There's three things I hate about a good portion of clubs in Calgary;

1) The racist, roid-monkey d-bags manning the door.
2) The roid-monkey d-bags who populate the place INSIDE the door.
3) The overpriced, watered down drinks which fund the 10-cent IQ bartenders / servers' breast implants.

No all of it is bad, though. Watching the d-bags hit on the 10-cent IQ'ers IS rather amusing, and also you get to watch the roid-monkeys from one side of the door battle the roid-monkeys from the other side of the door from time to time, for whatever reason; probably over the 10-cent IQ'er.

Yes those are all unique factors to only clubs in Calgary...

You should change the name from "Three things I hate about Calgary clubs" to "Three things I hate about clubs". Believe me, you just defined clubs in every urban centre.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

While I agree with the spirit of this court victory, fighting four years for a measly $5000 doesn't seem worthwhile to me. The cost for a lawyer and all that legal stuff just doesn't make any sense, unless he didn't use one.

Here's the problem - clubs will continue to keep certain "types" out at their will. It's their bar, and will not let potential troublemakers in if they see fit, and that goes for any race. Human Rights legislation or not.

In cases like these, the losing side is often assessed costs as well. So on top of the $5000 the club would have to pay for legal fees.

Since damages in Canada are largely based on actual loses you are not going to get much in the way of damages for an incident like this. It's clearly a moral victory, and it draws attention to his cause.

[Hack&Lube]

Racism in Calgary nightclubs is a VERY real thing that I have experienced on many first hand occasions, those of you who are not visible minorities might not see this. It has nothing to do with trouble makers, it's about them maintaining a certain image and racial profile and also profiling based on expected spending inside the club.

I never understood what racism felt like until I started going to Calgary nightclubs. Chances are that if you're caucasian you have never seen or experienced it. Be glad that you haven't. I have many stories that clearly illustrate that what is happening is racism and keeping up an image and not profiling based on troublemakers, etc. I don't want to revisit them though.

Just thinking about them and this thread makes me feel ill.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Yes those are all unique factors to only clubs in Calgary...

You should change the name from "Three things I hate about Calgary clubs" to "Three things I hate about clubs". Believe me, you just defined clubs in every urban centre.

Adelaide, South Australia. A bunch of us from Canada were going into a night club. One of the hayseeds from Saskatchewan had running shoes on so they woudn't let him in. No big deal, not unheard of to have dress codes in clubs, especially in cities in Oz. When he tried to talk his way in, the bouncer told him to "get lost with your fake American accent". Would that be considered discrimination?

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

Adelaide, South Australia. A bunch of us from Canada were going into a night club. One of the hayseeds from Saskatchewan had running shoes on so they woudn't let him in. No big deal, not unheard of to have dress codes in clubs, especially in cities in Oz. When he tried to talk his way in, the bouncer told him to "get lost with your fake American accent". Would that be considered discrimination?

BWAHAHAHA! I would have said "how true!" and left it at that.

[Acid Rush]

I think... we shouldn't generalize a specific race/ethnicity based on what one person who belongs to that race/ethnicity has done.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Yes those are all unique factors to only clubs in Calgary...

You should change the name from "Three things I hate about Calgary clubs" to "Three things I hate about clubs". Believe me, you just defined clubs in every urban centre.

Nah, not really. I've been to clubs in The States, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Japan, Greece... so I'm speaking from experience. It's especially troublesome here; should be called the 'cowboy' mentality given the aggressive nature of the establishment / clientele in certain facets.

Maybe you're one of them.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Muta

Nah, not really. I've been to clubs in The States, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Japan, Greece... so I'm speaking from experience. It's especially troublesome here; should be called the 'cowboy' mentality given the aggressive nature of the establishment / clientele in certain facets.

Maybe you're one of them.

Agreed.


Calgary clubs are the most pathetic conglomeration of trend-mongering whores I have ever witnessed.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Muta

Nah, not really. I've been to clubs in The States, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Japan, Greece... so I'm speaking from experience. It's especially troublesome here; should be called the 'cowboy' mentality given the aggressive nature of the establishment / clientele in certain facets.

Maybe you're one of them.

That is very true, Calgary has always had a serious racial discrimination problem with respect to clubs. Yes, in other cities, it will happen from time to time. However, in Calgary, it seems it is not only tolerated, but is a common practice amongst a majority of establishments in this city.

As those on CP that have a little knowledge of what I do for a living, I am part of the media/entertainment genre of career, hence I deal with establishments throughout North America. In reality, Calgary is really the worst for discrimination and racial judging.

The funny thing is when news clips such as the Global undercover operation come out, there are two types of reaction. The one group of citizens that are apalled, and they should be, kudos to them. The other side are the ones that are so ignorant to the racism, that they give justification to it or dont believe it actually exists. Its not pulling the race card, unfortunately in everyday Calgary, its a part of the club culture here, or lack thereof.

Despite the reaction of those that are truly disgusted by the racial profiling in clubs, the many TOWN HALL meetings which occur after the newscasts(which I attend to hear others speak), nothing ever is done to eliminate the practice. It is merely swept under the rug, until the next person decides to step up after an incident.

After years of watching and experiencing this happen in Calgary, I cant really figure out how and why a city which is supposed to be "world class" still tolerates business practices like this. Maybe a part of it has to do with the Hick/redneck roots, who knows. All I know is that it exists.

As far as the man doing this for a seedy club like Tequila, I think that perhaps he didnt do it for monetary reasons, but to raise more awarness of this problem. At least this case wasnt swept under the rug. Its a small victory, but a step in the right direction for change.

[Winsor_Pilates]

One thing I really don't miss about Calgary. I used to have about a 50/50 chance of getting into Calgary clubs, and since moving to Van have not been denied once.

It's so refreshing to be able to go out with with a group of friends of any race and go wherever we want. You can even have a decent conversation with most bouncers here about the club, crowd, business etc. The attitudes of doormen are so different here. In Calgary, it's hard to even ask a simple question.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by Muta

Nah, not really. I've been to clubs in The States, New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Japan, Greece... so I'm speaking from experience. It's especially troublesome here; should be called the 'cowboy' mentality given the aggressive nature of the establishment / clientele in certain facets.

Maybe you're one of them.

Well I've never left the continent, maybe its just more chill overseas. But I've been all over Canada, as well as over 20 states in the U.S., and partied in just about all of them. So I'm talking from experience too. And I've seen the same aggressive, prejudiced tendencies from bouncers in basically all these places.

I went out just two weeks ago in Edmonton, and the bouncers/doormen displayed all these traits. That of aggressive/snooty/arrogant/prejudiced, etc. And I saw alot of these traits regularly in the 2+ years I spent living in Vancouver recently. I remember in Vegas my buddy gagged in the bathroom and we all got tossed(despite the rest of us being nowhere near the bathroom at the time) into a back alley, surrounded by five meaty bouncers. I saw these same tendencies in NY, LA, Phoenix, Philly, Orlando...basically everywhere(save for New Orleans. Most chillin town ever).

Maybe its just a more relaxed scene in Europe/Australia/Asia, I dont know. But here in N.A., I see absolutely no difference in the qualities you're refering to from Calgary doormen/bouncers/bartenders/shootergirls as I have anywhere I've been on this continent(which is a shame).

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Sainters7

Maybe its just a more relaxed scene in Europe/Australia/Asia, I dont know. But here in N.A., I see absolutely no difference in the qualities you're refering to from Calgary doormen/bouncers/bartenders/shootergirls as I have anywhere I've been on this continent(which is a shame).

It depends. What do you look like and what do you friends look like that accompany you? Calgary is abhorridly racist, profiling, and their bouncers are extremely prejudiced, arrogant, and unfriendly (to put it mildly) if not downright insulting and despicable. Montreal, Toronto, etc. I never felt a single bad vibe.

[Flames09]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

1. I thought sikh's are forbidden to drink.
2. Shouldnt a private establishment be allowed to decide who gets in and who doesn't.

Yes they are and Sikhs that wear turbans usually dont drink because they are religious, thats usually why they wear a turban.

Originally Posted by burn_this_city

Sikh's drink, the completely devote ones don't, but most still do..

'Most' ?? are you kidding me?? I can say that 'most' don't drink, it's usually the younger guys in there twenties that do and they usually dont wear turbans. So if these clubs are going to be racial profiling to keep trouble out of their night clubs then their targets shouldn't be men in turbans they should target young sikhs that look western.

[Cube Inmate]

I'm not claiming that there was no discrimination, but did the night club owners get their due process?? This was not a court case, it was a human rights commission case... what are the requirements for a finding of "guilty" here? What qualifies Ald. Diane Colley-Urqhart to lead a panel like this, and gives her the right to impose financial penalties?

Doesn't sound to me like there was proof of wrong-doing, but the commission simply believed the assertion of the accuser over the claims of innocence from the other side. Non-judicial panels like this have no place in my world. An accusation of discrimination needs to be proven in a civil court, in front of a qualified judge...not simply "suggested" in front of a panel of bleeding hearts.