Obama's education plan

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, the point of exploration is achieving understanding. We haven't even scratched the surface of our world and already we should move on?

Like I said....part of understanding the world around us would be to understand the universe around us.

How much understanding do you think we'd have of our planet if early scientists would have never begun studying the stars....and scientists nowadays began studying planets, and so on and so forth?

Maybe its just me and my utter fascination with just about anything that NASA does.

Obviously I must be biased.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

Like I said....part of understanding the world around us would be to understand the universe around us.

How much understanding do you think we'd have of our planet if early scientists would have never begun studying the stars....and scientists nowadays began studying planets, and so on and so forth?

Maybe its just me and my utter fascination with just about anything that NASA does.

Obviously I must be biased.

How...?

Maybe I'm just biased towards birds and bees biology, but I think there's just as much cool stuff going on here. What about the world of microbiology?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

In a perfect constitutional world, no. I would say the Feds should do what the Feds should do and the States do as States do. In the actual case of Federal intervention, Obama's education program is just as legitimate as any other policy.

I guess I just believe it should be primarily a state issue without ANY involvement from the Federal Government.

Do I philosophically agree with it? Probably not, but that's a different question.

Fair enough.

The NASA exploration program I see as being totally pointless. What does humanity actually achieve in terms of actual interest?

I'm far from an expert on what NASA actually does, so of course I can't explain what kind of achievements they make.

But I don't see the exploration of the world around us as pointless.

I mean the ISS isn't just up there to float around right?

[HotHotHeat]

Obama's lack of concern for NASA funding is fueled by his desire for a better USA.

Hard for some to take.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

How...?

Maybe I'm just biased towards birds and bees biology, but I think there's just as much cool stuff going on here. What about the world of microbiology?

Hey I'm not saying microbiology is any 'less' important.

There is a lot of 'cool' stuff going on here, just like there is a lot of cool stuff going on in space.

And don't even ask 'how'....cause I truly understand very little about space exploration.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

Obama's lack of concern for NASA funding is fueled by his desire for a better USA.

Hard for some to take.

Yes, because on the list of important projects funded by the US budget, NASA is VERY low on the list.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Azure

Hey I'm not saying microbiology is any 'less' important.

There is a lot of 'cool' stuff going on here, just like there is a lot of cool stuff going on in space.

And don't even ask 'how'....cause I truly understand very little about space exploration.

Well, you've changed your original statement then.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Azure

I never said we 'understand' it.

But I would think that part of understanding the planet around is would be exploring the galaxy, solar system and universe around us. No?

I think that the voices that appear to be against your opinion are less 'against' your opinion and more 'for' solving problems at home before seeking out new ones.

I'm a total space geek, but I am also of the opinion that curing diseases and educating the planet takes precedent over exploration. Much the same as actual attendance of school is more important than field trips.
While field trips are nice, and they help spark interest in furthering education, it is more of a supplementary tool than a primary one.

But also, IMO, national space programs aren't exactly altruistic in nature. I'd bet my life savings (which ain't much) that NASA spends more money researching national defence mechanisms than actually studying "space".
Whether they like it or not. Because it is a national program, and because the American military is so influential in American politics, NASA's funding is often channelled toward research that ends up helping to arm or protect the USA.

I have to agree though, that there is other pork that should be cut before NASA's funding. Governments waste more money than most of us can imagine. But understand that Obama is making a political statement by saying that he'll cut NASA's budget. He's saying that he'd more focussed on individual Americans than he is on a certain science that interests few, and benefits fewer. It is a liberal philosophy. Educating individuals helps bolster an entire community.
And to do that, he needs money. And the conservative side of the argument is "where you gonna get that money?"
His answer has to come from a tangible source. He can't just say that he's going to "cut the pork". He has to say where he's going to get the money. And there are few sources to choose from... National defence, education, health care, infrastructure, programs like NASA that individuals don't really benefit from immediately... Or he could say that he'll raise taxes. That'll get him the nomination...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well, you've changed your original statement then.

Fine, I'll admit that it was misplaced.

Doesn't change the importance of NASA though.

Nor does it make the USA 'any' better by cutting their funds.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I think that the voices that appear to be against your opinion are less 'against' your opinion and more 'for' solving problems at home before seeking out new ones.

Bingo. Articulated quite nicely.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by 4X4

I'm a total space geek, but I am also of the opinion that curing diseases and educating the planet takes precedent over exploration. Much the same as actual attendance of school is more important than field trips.
While field trips are nice, and they help spark interest in furthering education, it is more of a supplementary tool than a primary one.

I'm not sure I like my own statement. Came out a little wrong. Personally, I've always been a 'learn on the job' type, so back in school, field trips were actually very beneficial to my education.
Also, I usually disagree with book-smart types. If you learned how to do something by reading a book, don't dare to butt heads with someone that has actually done it until you have.

So to clarify my quoted statement, I'm saying that ////SWEET WARRENER JUST SCORED\\\\\\
I'm saying that a field trip is not as useful without the classroom studying that came before it. An understanding of what you're looking at, I suppose.

And since the issue is being presented in a "but it benefits all mankind" light, I humbly submit that very, very few people actually understand what we're learning in space. Which is why it appears as a minor travesty to some, that a few people are gunning for the stars at the (so called) expense of many, who lack basic education.

[jolinar of malkshor]

I agree with Azure.

ADD: Can you imagine what the world would be like if back in the 15th century European countries said to the exployers, you know, we got this plague running wild, no one is educated, no work and all these wars. We just cant finance exploration trips so lets just stay home and once we solve all the social problems, then we can go explore.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Azure

You never said that.

.....

I would say that finding cures for things like cancer and AIDS is much more important that NASA

When in fact the two go hand in hand.

.

So explain it then...

How does the constellation program and finding cures for disease go hand in hand?

NASA's search into biology is limited to specific areas and has little to do with research into cures for disease. Do you have any information that states otherwise?

BTW, delaying the program for 5 years is not the same as cancelling it altogether. You're being melodramatic.

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I agree with Azure.

ADD: Can you imagine what the world would be like if back in the 15th century European countries said to the exployers, you know, we got this plague running wild, no one is educated, no work and all these wars. We just cant finance exploration trips so lets just stay hoe and once we solve all the social problems, then we can go explore.

I think that Native North and South American populations would have been ok with that....

FWIW if Obama does delay NASA funding...you can bet that the Chinese will likely be the first nation to return to the moon...

IMO, finding $18B for education in a budget as large as the US' shouldn't be that hard (once elected), until then he chose a project that will piss off the pocket protector crowd, but not the average voter...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

I think that Native North and South American populations would have been ok with that....

FWIW if Obama does delay NASA funding...you can bet that the Chinese will likely be the first nation to return to the moon...

IMO, finding $18B for education in a budget as large as the US' shouldn't be that hard (once elected), until then he chose a project that will piss off the pocket protector crowd, but not the average voter...

Thank you very much.

18 billion is not a lot in a multi trillion dollar budget.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I agree with Azure.

ADD: Can you imagine what the world would be like if back in the 15th century European countries said to the exployers, you know, we got this plague running wild, no one is educated, no work and all these wars. We just cant finance exploration trips so lets just stay hoe and once we solve all the social problems, then we can go explore.

The nations in 15th century Europe were also not democracies that were accountable to their citizens. The exploration of the new world was not done because it was in the best interests of the people... it was done to line the pockets of the kings and queens. Europe itself was still subject to famine and epidemics during that time, education was largely ignored for the average citizen, genocides and pillaging were the norm... in fact, who is to say that the world would not have been better off if the colonialist nations focused more on their own people?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

The nations in 15th century Europe were also not democracies that were accountable to their citizens. The exploration of the new world was not done because it was in the best interests of the people... it was done to line the pockets of the kings and queens. Europe itself was still subject to famine and epidemics during that time, education was largely ignored for the average citizen, genocides and pillaging were the norm... in fact, who is to say that the world would not have been better off if the colonialist nations focused more on their own people?

Who cares if they were democratic or not? The point is, if you go with the idea that social problems need to be solved first, then we will never explore anywhere else.

One of the problems with space exploration is that it is government controled. The US government would not authorize some provate company to start there own space program in the USA. So the government is inherently involved.

[Dan02]

I've been a Obama supporter since before he knew he was running, yet now he's trying to make me not want him to win. NASA(and similar space programs) and the research they do is the future of our species. Sure we can argue that NASA isn't as important as other things they need money for, but at the same time it's more important then alot of the things they spend more on, NASAs budget has been taking beatings for years as it is already. They're already expecting up to a 4 year delay where they will have no human space capabilitys other then through the Russians, wouldn't delaying it 5 more years make it almost a decade with no Americans launched into space??

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Dan02

I've been a Obama supporter since before he knew he was running, yet now he's trying to make me not want him to win. NASA(and similar space programs) and the research they do is the future of our species. Sure we can argue that NASA isn't as important as other things they need money for, but at the same time it's more important then alot of the things they spend more on, NASAs budget has been taking beatings for years as it is already. They're already expecting up to a 4 year delay where they will have no human space capabilitys other then through the Russians, wouldn't delaying it 5 more years make it almost a decade with no Americans launched into space??

Agreed.

We would have a colony on the moon by now if the world wasn't so preoccupied with starting wars with everyone.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

We would have a colony on the moon by now if the world wasn't so preoccupied starting wars with everyone.

We don't agree often, but on this we sure do.