Conservatives try to bribe independent MP?

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Before we going making final determinations and accusing conservative supporters that they are being biased, why dont we wait until the truth comes out. We were able to let load on the Libs because they had an enquirery and we had the facts to make statements. We dont have the facts yet.

Stay tuned.

Fair enough, lets just not start making up excuses either.


I have been very pleased with this current government, a fiscally conservative majority on a short enough leash that they can not get lazy. Hopefully it doesn't fall from being tainted by the same sort of crap they threw in the Liberals faces not too long ago.



Claeren.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by llama64

I'm not surprised to find out the Conservatives used dirty tactics. I expect any politician to use such maneuvers. But what I find offensive is that its somehow alright for the Conservatives to do such a thing while the Liberals burn in hell.

You mean you are not surprised to find that the Conservatives are accused of using dirty tactics.

...by a woman attempting to sell books at the expense of her dead husband.

The funny thing about this entire story, is that there is no way for the Federal Liberals not to come out of this looking like giant hypocrites. All they can hope to do is try and drag the Conservatives down with them. There is something remarkably funny about a party that made a routine habit of making questionable deals getting up in arms about accusations like this.

Seriously, what is the Liberal platform here? "See! They suck as much as we do!" ?

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You mean you are not surprised to find that the Conservatives are accused of using dirty tactics.

...by a woman attempting to sell books at the expense of her dead husband.

She isn't the one selling the book. All she did was give information to the person who wrote it.

Dona Cadman still plans on running for the Conservatives in the next election, but hasn't yet made a statement about the allegations she made and the tapes that she turned over to the author. It's really a bizarre situation considering that the Cadman's have a history of being supporters of the Conservatives.

edit: I guess hse has made a statement and is sticking to the story that she told the author of the book (Tom Zytaruk).

All they can hope to do is try and drag the Conservatives down with them. There is something remarkably funny about a party that made a routine habit of making questionable deals getting up in arms about accusations like this.

The book has made some serious criminal accusations against the Conservatives, and as the opposition party, the Liberals have a duty to ask for an investigation. It's not that they are getting "up in arms" over this... The Liberals have only said that there are questions that need to be answered.

[guzzy]

The saddest thing about all of this is we are listening to lefties running a smear campaign.

Who is to say the widow and the daughter of Cadman, were not paid off by the liberals to say these things about their dead family member. To me this is just as feasible as the hearsay that the liberal media is trying to portray. Both are hearsay and really.....who cares. Politicians do these sorts of things all of the time....it doesn't make it right....but get over it.

When Stronach crossed the floor, do you think she was bribed? Absolutely she was but of course the liberal run media never looked into that did they? Sometimes I really strongly dislike the left wing.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by guzzy

The saddest thing about all of this is we are listening to lefties running a smear campaign.

Who is to say the widow and the daughter of Cadman, were not paid off by the liberals to say these things about their dead family member. To me this is just as feasible as the hearsay that the liberal media is trying to portray. Both are hearsay and really.....who cares. Politicians do these sorts of things all of the time....it doesn't make it right....but get over it.

When Stronach crossed the floor, do you think she was bribed? Absolutely she was but of course the liberal run media never looked into that did they? Sometimes I really strongly dislike the left wing.

You sound like a conspiracy theorist. Do you really think that Dona Cadman and her daughter could be paid to spread lies about their dead husband/father? Have you ever had a loved one die? Liberal or Conservative, it would a hard sell to try and get someone to sell out a dead loved one. Seriously, it's offensive on so many levels.

I suppose you also think the Liberals forged the audio tapes that Dona Cadman had where Harper admits that he knew a financial offer was going to be made to Cadman...

This isn't a Liberal vs. Conservative issue. In fact, the Liberals aren't even the ones that made the accusations. It's an issue of trying to circumvent democracy by bribing an MP. The allegations may or may not end up being true, but the Liberals have every write to be asking questions.

I say we wait and see where this goes, but there is more evidence toward this being a Conservative scandal vs. and elaborate Liberal smear campaign. Jumping to conclusions either way is premature.

[guzzy]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

You sound like a conspiracy theorist. Do you really think that Dona Cadman and her daughter could be paid to spread lies about their dead husband/father? Have you ever had a loved one die? Liberal or Conservative, it would a hard sell to try and get someone to sell out a dead loved one. Seriously, it's offensive on so many levels.

I suppose you also think the Liberals forged the audio tapes that Dona Cadman had where Harper admits that he knew a financial offer was going to be made to Cadman...

This isn't a Liberal vs. Conservative issue. In fact, the Liberals aren't even the ones that made the accusations. It's an issue of trying to circumvent democracy by bribing an MP. The allegations may or may not end up being true, but the Liberals have every write to be asking questions.

I say we wait and see where this goes, but there is more evidence toward this being a Conservative scandal vs. and elaborate Liberal smear campaign. Jumping to conclusions either way is premature.

Hence why I said very clearly in my post, "Who is to say?"

This is all hearsay. I didn't say they were paid off by someone. I said the opportunity existed. My whole point was to say people need to not get so worked up about it because it has happened before and will happen again.

[Claeren]

Originally Posted by guzzy

The saddest thing about all of this is we are listening to lefties running a smear campaign.

Who is to say the widow and the daughter of Cadman, were not paid off by the liberals to say these things about their dead family member. To me this is just as feasible as the hearsay that the liberal media is trying to portray. Both are hearsay and really.....who cares. Politicians do these sorts of things all of the time....it doesn't make it right....but get over it.

When Stronach crossed the floor, do you think she was bribed? Absolutely she was but of course the liberal run media never looked into that did they? Sometimes I really strongly dislike the left wing.

Yikes...

First of all, Cadman and his family are long time CONSERVATIVES, not Liberals. While Cadman left the party before his death he was and his family still are Conservatives to this day. Despite all of that, it is his family that have confirmed long standing suspisions of this illegal bribary offer.

Second of all, there is an AUDIO recording of Harper himself confirming that he had heard about such an offer but that he did not know the details.

^ So combined that seems to have a whole lot to do with the conservatives both commiting and then discussing the bribary - no evil Liberals involved!


Lastly, and i have no clue what this all has to do with Belinda Stronach, but her reasons for changing parties are very well documented and there was ZERO talk of bribes or illegal actions.

Furthermore, how do you suppose you would bribe her? Seriously, HOW?!

In 2001, the National Post named Stronach as the most powerful businesswoman in Canada. Fortune Magazine ranked her #2 in its list of the world's most powerful women in business in 2002. She was also named one of Canada's "Top 40 Under 40". In April 2004, Time Magazine ranked her as one of the world's 100 most influential people.

Her net worth is likely in the hundreds of millions. Her family is loaded and her father makes ~$50M/year on top of his ~$600M net worth and huge industrial holdings.


I am NOT a Belinda Stronach fan at ALL but she was clearly not bribed by anyone. To suggest otherwise here is just poor taste.

As an obvious far-right supporter don't you want your own party to be clean and noble?! How does ignoring obvious corruption help you and your political ideals?

The irony is that it is not the corruption that makes the Conservatives like the Liberals - it is the sad and pathetic attempts to make that corruption a partisan issue that makes them so alike. Sad... why can't people just say sorry - we screwed up? Oh, other then potential jail time...

The Liberals were left saying "we didn't do it" when they clearly did, now the Conservatives are saying "we didn't do it, and i bet it is a liberal plot to make it look like we did" when they clearly did something at least questionable - if not provable!? Come on, that is brutal.




Claeren.

[Devils'Advocate]

I think the stupidest thing that Paul Martin ever did was having the Sponsorship Scandal inquiry. Sure, it cleared him of personal involvement, but it kept the scandal in the news for years. Repeat "Liberal" and "corruption" enough times in the headlines, the people of Ontario and Quebec are going to start saying "let's teach them a lesson about being corrupt". As if you could ever teach politicians about being corrupt.

The smartest thing for Harper at this point is to sweep this under the rug and pretend it didn't happen. Canadians are pretty forgetful when it comes to scandals. How many did Chretien sweep under the rug? Mulroney too for that matter. But if you call an inquiry into the matter, you might as well have put a gun to your head. It's a no-win situation like the sponsorship inquiry - there was absolutely no possible good that could have come out of that.

Unless the RCMP find a smoking gun, I think Harper will be a Chretien instead of a Paul Martin. He'll bury this thing as fast as he can.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by guzzy

Who is to say the widow and the daughter of Cadman, were not paid off by the liberals to say these things about their dead family member. To me this is just as feasible as the hearsay that the liberal media is trying to portray. Both are hearsay and really.....who cares. Politicians do these sorts of things all of the time....it doesn't make it right....but get over it.

Who is to say that Harper doesn't bathe in the blood left-handed children?

[calculoso]

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...hub=TopStories

The wife of deceased Independent MP Chuck Cadman has issued a statement supporting Prime Minister Stephen Harper, who has filed a notice of libel against the Liberals.

Dona Cadman, who will be running for the Tories as a candidate in B.C.'s Surrey North riding, said she raised the issue of an alleged million-dollar life insurance offer to her then-terminally ill husband to help gain his vote against the 2005 Liberal budget with Harper about two-and-a-half years ago.

"He looked me straight in the eyes and told me he had no knowledge of an insurance policy offer. I knew he was telling me the truth; I could see it in his eyes," Dona Cadman said in the statement released Monday.

"From that point forward, I didn't regard it as a 'party' initiative, but rather the overzealous indiscretion of a couple of individuals whose identity Chuck never revealed to me."

The statement came after a morning in which Liberal Leader Stephane Dion was served with the notice at his Stornoway residence in Ottawa.

"The prime minister is not only suing the Liberal leader, he's suing the deputy leader, Michael Ignatieff; Ralph Goodale, who is the House leader; and the Liberal Party of Canada," Fife said.

"Mr. Harper's notice of libel says they've accused him of knowing about Conservative bribery in the Cadman affair," he said.

Harper said the allegations, made outside the House of Commons and on the Liberal party's website, are false and misleading. He is asking for an immediate retraction, Fife said.

Interesting developments...

[Resolute 14]

Course, for the Liberals, the damage is already done.

I don't expect the media will devote a lot of time to the story if the Liberals are forced to backtrack.

[FlamesAddiction]

It doesn't really change anything. According to quotes in the book, Harper admitted on tape that he knew that financial offers were made to Cadman, just that he didn't know the specifics. The Liberals allegedly claimed (I haven't seen or heard the claims) that Harper knew about the $1 million insurance policy offer, while Harper only allegedly admits to knowing of a non-specified financial offer.

That doesn't absolve Harper of any guilt whatsoever, and it sounds like he is just arguing over semantics now to throw a wrench into the investigation.

In the end, I doubt if this libel suit will get very far.

[Bobblehead]

The libel suit may dampen some of the rhetoric for fear of getting sued. Or at least limit it to the House of Commons.

[octothorp]

I can't see this lawsuit as having a leg to stand on. It should be allowed on one at least one of several exceptions allowed in Canadian libel law:

Primarily, it should be excluded on the grounds that the accusations were made in parliament, and generally everything said in the legislative assemblies and courts is excluded from libel. As a matter of public interest, it should also be subject to fair comment.

The political motives are pretty obvious in that the lawsuit would be more likely to succeed if it was directed at the members of the Cadman family or the author of the book; the liberals were simply repeating claims made in the book. Which makes them responsible, if the statements are actually libel, but if this was anything other than a political ploy, the Cadmans would definitely be included.

[old-fart]

This entire thing is a bit of a red herring, but that's not too be completely unexpected. Politicians on the whole are slimy dirt bags, so no big surprise that this particular group, of all political strips, are being so.

Harper has said that he knew some financial arrangements were talked about. That doesn't make it a bribe, nor does it make it a "life insurance policy". It has been speculated that what was offered was his nomination in the riding and help from the PC Party for campaign expenses (something that is done by all parties for some candidates) to ensure no undo hardship occured as a result of the vote. Doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it a bribe for a million either.

To suggest Stronach was not bribed is equally absurd. Money is not the only thing that people can be bribed with. In Belinda's case it is obvious to anyone with their eyes open that she was bribed with "power", specifically the power (or percieved power) of a cabinet position she didn't deserve and hadn't earned. What was she, the ministry of complex files or something? Something that didn't need a minister before she crossed the floor, and hasn't needed a minister since her departure. It was a bribe, flat out, and was done in such a way that it would be difficult to prove.

The whole thing is more about "they are horrible while we are great" on both sides than about what is good for the country on any level.

[FlamesAddiction]

From calculoso's article:

"From that point forward, I didn't regard it as a 'party' initiative, but rather the overzealous indiscretion of a couple of individuals whose identity Chuck never revealed to me."

My gut feeling is that she is correct. If the allegations are true, Harper probably didn't innitiate the ploy. That really doesn't matter though. If he knew of it, even if he didn't know the details, and he didn't alert the authorities or fire the people responsible, then he would still be guilty.

I get the feeling here that Dona Cadman didn't realize the can of worms she was opening when she gave this information to the author of the book. Unfortunately, just because he (Harper) looked her in the eyes and told her he didn't do it, doesn't mean that the opposition parties in Parliament should believe it until a full investigation is complete.

I really hope it turns out to be a misunderstanding or something. It's really annoying how it seems like some kind of scandal has to plague every government.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by old-fart

Harper has said that he knew some financial arrangements were talked about. That doesn't make it a bribe, nor does it make it a "life insurance policy". .

No, but the life insurance policy is what Dona Cadman is saying the "financial arrangments" referred to in the book were. It isn't the Liberals saying that... they're just repeating what Dona Cadman alleges.

[calculoso]

I've read that what is said in the legislature is protected by parliamentary privilege, but does that same privilege extend to a party's website? I get the sense that this is why the lawsuit is being raised - for what was published there.

I think this will go in one of two directions... either the Liberals have to withdraw and apologize for what was on their website, or we'll see a whole bunch of new shots directed at them by the Conservatives on their website (which will only degrade things further).

[old-fart]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

No, but the life insurance policy is what Dona Cadman is saying the "financial arrangments" referred to in the book were. It isn't the Liberals saying that... they're just repeating what Dona Cadman alleges.

The only problem with that is she wasn't there (and admits as much) when any such offer was made, if any such offer was in fact made. Neither was the daughter, who is also claiming a similar story. The only people in the room were two conservative members and Chuck Cadman. Both conservative members say no life insurance offer was ever made. Chuck said the same thing days after the vote on national TV.

Now, years later, Dona and her daughter claim Chuck (who has since passed away) made a deathbed revelation that there was in fact a bribe attempt.

In short, there is exactly zero proof that any offer was made, ever. This is a non-starter. What do you expect the RCMP to do? They'll ask the two conservatives who were in the room who will promptly say "nope, no bribe was made". They'll look at the video of Chuck saying "nope, no bribe was made". Then they'll talk to the family who will say "well, Chuck told us on his deathbed there was a bribe of life insurance".

So... no one who is in the room will admit to any bribe, and in fact will all refute it (albeit one from beyond the grave via TV shortly after the vote). Anything else that anyone might have told someone is hearsay and considering the person who might have said something is now dead and has been seen on TV saying the exact opposite.... well, you get the idea.

Just another black eye for politicians in general.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by old-fart

The only problem with that is she wasn't there (and admits as much) when any such offer was made, if any such offer was in fact made. Neither was the daughter, who is also claiming a similar story. The only people in the room were two conservative members and Chuck Cadman. Both conservative members say no life insurance offer was ever made. Chuck said the same thing days after the vote on national TV.

I was just pointing out how it's funny that Harper would slap the Liberals with a libel suit for saying the exact same thing that Dona Cadman said while not doing the same thing to her. I also find it funny how on the same day that the libel suit was declared, Dona Cadman issues a statement proclaiming that she believes Harper is innocent... Things that make you go "hmmmmmm".

Originally Posted by old-fart

Now, years later, Dona and her daughter claim Chuck (who has since passed away) made a deathbed revelation that there was in fact a bribe attempt.

In short, there is exactly zero proof that any offer was made, ever. This is a non-starter. What do you expect the RCMP to do? They'll ask the two conservatives who were in the room who will promptly say "nope, no bribe was made". They'll look at the video of Chuck saying "nope, no bribe was made". Then they'll talk to the family who will say "well, Chuck told us on his deathbed there was a bribe of life insurance".

So... no one who is in the room will admit to any bribe, and in fact will all refute it (albeit one from beyond the grave via TV shortly after the vote). Anything else that anyone might have told someone is hearsay and considering the person who might have said something is now dead and has been seen on TV saying the exact opposite.... well, you get the idea.

Just another black eye for politicians in general.

I know it will be hard to prove guilt, or for Harper establish his innocence (not that he legally has to), but there is still a duty to have it investigated. IF the "life insurance" offer was real, then more people know about it than just the Cadman's and Conservatives. They wouldn't have been able to make the offer unless the insurance could already be secured, so unless the Conservatives who allegedly made the offer were also the ones actually giving the insurance, then more people would know... An investigation could reveal more people who might be involved. Not to mention, it seems that people are often quite careless with their memos and emails. The RCMP has a way of digging things like that up.