Benazir Bhutto Assassinated

[WinColumn]

This is huge and has global implications. Pakistan is the only Islamic country with nuclear weapons. The current government is failing, which is partially why Bhutto returned to Pakistan in the first place. A nuclear country without a stable government should be a concern for everyone. Many countries are going to be dragged into the situation before things get better.

There were allegations of corruption surrounding her, but I really believe she had good intentions of reform for Pakistan. Anyone who endangers their life the way she did is driven by "higher" motivations than greed.

I don't know much about her first couple terms as Prime Minister, but you have to be pretty impressed with her accomplishments. She is extremely well spoken and lets not forget that she is a woman...in an mainly Islamic country!

I'm also impressed that there is a thread here at CP.

[Azure]

I'm not worried about Pakistan using nuclear weapons.

Unless extremists take over, and with a ruler holding the power through military rule, I doubt that will happen.

[Neeper]

I wonder how much effort Musharaff will put in into finding out who did this. He does gain the most from her death. I am sure some will say he might even have had a hand in it. Horrible day for Pakistan.

[FireFly]

Is it wrong of me to wish that the democratic states of the world go and crush the militaristic regime currently leading that country so that they can be a democratic nation? Problem with that is then democratic nations have to kill those in the country who are not democratic, and frankly, wouldn't that be a political war? Not a religious war? Ooooooh. That'll never happen. It's always religion that causes war, isn't it?

[FireFly]

Is anyone watching CBC News' special on Bhutto right now? This really makes me angry. You want these people just to ride out this regime? All she was fighting for was democracy and that's what she was killed for. What a woman. She knew she would die for democracy. That was her cry to democratic nations to step in for democracy. At least, that's what it sounds like to me.

[transplant99]

Interesting that the official line is that she did not die from a bullet wound nor from schrapnel from the bomb, but that she "hit her head on the roof of the car" after the attack.

Something is just too strange about the way that Musharraf's government has handled this thing. I have little doubt that we will start seeing him connected directly to this event (rightly or wrongly) and that Pakistan falls into an all out civil war. Sounds like he is going to suspend the constitution and impose martial law on top of postponing the elections.

They also claim that they have intercepted and recorded a message between Al-Qaeda leaders congratulating each other on the successful attack.

this is just going to get ugly.

[Ozy_Flame]

What's your source on the "head hit" Transplant?

CNN is saying she died from a shrapnel wound.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapc...day/index.html

[Cowperson]

Two opinion pieces remembering Bhutto.

The fond recollections of David Ignatius, a well-respected columnist in teh Washington Post

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...l_gam_mostview

. . . . . . which contrasts quite a bit to the more practical recollections of a political martinet from Marcus Gee in the Globe & Mail

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...l_gam_mostview

this is just going to get ugly.

Maybe.

It might die down and be business as usual in a few days.

When Indira Ghandi was assassinated in India, it was easy to go out and fry a few thousand Sikh's in retaliation but it's not so easy to identify a culprit, even if the government points at Al-Queda, in this case.

It could also be a great opportunity . . . . although, as usual in that part of the world, likely at great loss of life.

The interesting thing about this is right from the moment she landed back in Pakistan she seemed to go out of her way to expose herself to this kind of thing. Constantly surrounded by surging and unfiltered crowds, there didn't seem much that anyone might have been able to do to protect her indefinitely.

Even sticking her head out of an armoured car to wave to the masses jostling her vehicle was pretty foolhardy, even for a populist.

Cowperson

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Ozy_Flame

What's your source on the "head hit" Transplant?

CNN is saying she died from a shrapnel wound.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapc...day/index.html

That will change...they have it all over their broadcast right now.

In fact its there now...a big banner across the front page.

www.cnn.com

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

The interesting thing about this is right from the moment she landed back in Pakistan she seemed to go out of her way to expose herself to this kind of thing. Constantly surrounded by surging and unfiltered crowds, there didn't seem much that anyone might have been able to do to protect her indefinitely.

Even sticking her head out of an armoured car to wave to the masses jostling her vehicle was pretty foolhardy, even for a populist.
Cowperson

That would really make her security detail nervous everytime she appeared in public. Wonder if the reports are true about how their request for additional security, bomb sniffing dogs, and radio frequency jammers being denied by the government are true.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by lchoy

That would really make her security detail nervous everytime she appeared in public. Wonder if the reports are true about how their request for additional security, bomb sniffing dogs, and radio frequency jammers being denied by the government are true.

Let's assume for a moment those reports are true, that the government denied her the essentials of protection . . . . . . then why on earth are you exposing yourself in such a way, jostled by surging, unfiltered crowds at every turn?

One must resist in every instance the temptation to say the victim "had it coming" but . . . . . she did very, very, very little to help herself in the face of obvious threats.

Did that make her great or just an idiot?

Cowperson

[LChoy]

Probably a little bit of both
Populist politicians never appear to hide or appear to cave to threats. Her position was "for the people", and almost like she was daring her attackers to make her a Martyr (which makes me wonder, if a female muslim becomes a martyr, would they also get 77 (male?) virgins?).

At the same time, look at the the US president. He probably gets just as much death threats whenever he goes somewhere, and he still goes and meets with the public. Granted, secret service would have cleared the environment, everyone present pre-screened, snipers perched, and a full accompany of SWAT and SS nearby. But the point is that the popular leaders have to appear like the are unfazed and not scared. Sadly, Bhutto may not have had all the tools, but she still had to be one with her people.

[CaptainCrunch]

The big winner of yesterdays assassination on a lot of different levels is Musharraf.

He know removes focus from his purges of the chief justices and his attacks on his opposition. Frankly he can take the stand that he knew that something like this would come.

There will be a suspension of the next election which will give him the time to consolidate his government, and he can also use the time to go hard after the extremist groups which now will likely have pretty heavy support from the average person on the street.

He's going to probably blame the entire incident on the ISI, Pakistan's internal security and intelligence service. Its no secret that there's been a dirty little war between Musharraf and the ISI with the ISI providing side intelligence and aid and comfort to the extremist groups that are hiding out in the wild lands on the Afghanistan border. I wouldn't be surprised if the government announces an independent investigation into the conduct of the ISI over the handling of the security at this event and the failure of using some key piece of information that could have prevented it. ISI will be scorched from the top down and rebuild to more closely work with the government.

The Army over the next few days will strike at targets of significant interest, they will also be given the clearance to go into the tribal lands and pacify the tribes and destroy the extremist training and camp facilities.

The police are going to cast a pretty wide net in tracking down the responsible parties. Anyone who has either opposed the government or opposed "democracy" is going to find themselves in a very small hole waiting for a rope or a bullet.

Look for a even more stringent version of marshal law to be declared.


Like I said, this is such an amazing assassination, that the conspiracy theorist in me makes the logical jump that either Musharraf either free lanced it, or knew it was coming and made sure that it happened, with the convenient factor being that the killer, blew himself up after the car left, which serves no purpose but to remove a key link in this crime.

All that needs to happen now is for one more major attack to occur to really whip up the populous, and Musharraf will have everything he needs to declare a true state of emergency and permanently hold his position til the crisis passes.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Cowperson

Let's assume for a moment those reports are true, that the government denied her the essentials of protection . . . . . . then why on earth are you exposing yourself in such a way, jostled by surging, unfiltered crowds at every turn?

One must resist in every instance the temptation to say the victim "had it coming" but . . . . . she did very, very, very little to help herself in the face of obvious threats.

Did that make her great or just an idiot?

Cowperson

People can call her actions, brave or showing that she's one of the people. But the end result is that a corpse does no good, and can't be brave. She was foolish to stick her head out of an armored limo. It removed the effectiveness of her bodyguards, and defeated to purpose of the limo.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Interesting that the official line is that she did not die from a bullet wound nor from schrapnel from the bomb, but that she "hit her head on the roof of the car" after the attack.

Something is just too strange about the way that Musharraf's government has handled this thing. I have little doubt that we will start seeing him connected directly to this event (rightly or wrongly) and that Pakistan falls into an all out civil war. Sounds like he is going to suspend the constitution and impose martial law on top of postponing the elections.

They also claim that they have intercepted and recorded a message between Al-Qaeda leaders congratulating each other on the successful attack.

this is just going to get ugly.

There was also an eyewitness report that was at the hospital that spoke in pretty blunt terms that the shot that went through her spinal column and exited out of her head killed her, the second wound through the back and out the chest was just window dressing.

Eyewitnesses also state that the limo was moving away from the crowd at high speed when the explosion happened.

Here's what I think happened. The assassin came out of the crowd behind the limo. Pulled a pistol from a concealed space and shot her twice from behind. The first bullet hit her in the back of the neck and exited out of the skull killing her instantly. The second bullet entered her back and exited out of her chest. When a person is shot in the back with a low caliber bullet your back tends to arch as you fall. Bhutto probably fell straight down through the roof of the limo. Her body guards in the car saw this and were probably screaming blue murder and order the limo to the nearest hospital. The killer his job done went to do a last bit of damage and pulled the primacord on his vest blasting the crowd, but the shrapnel would have been defeated by the limo's armor.

As an add on, she was already dead as she fell or "ducked" into the limo after being shot, so her head probably bounced off of whatever was in that opening.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by fotze

I am trying to figure out why they would bullshat the autopsy and say she bonked her head (because that totally sounds like they are lying). Is it so they can pull out conspiracy theories that people are unbelievably likely to put credence into? Are they counting on the power of the moron in people?

Look at who is putting out that release. Its the Interior Ministry, which overviews the intelligence organs of the government. They're trying to stem the damage that this is going to do to their ministry.

I also find it funny that they've released a radio intercept from Al Queda congratulating itself over the kill. Yet Al Queda is notorious for taking credits for acts on their website, and they haven't posted there yet.

This is really starting to smell.

[transplant99]

If I understand Islamic custom, there was no autopsy performed. They had the alleged doctor on TV a while ago stating that she died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on the sunroof that was on either side of her as she stood in the vehicle.

In so many words they stated that there were no foreign objects seen in her body through x-ray, so therefore she did this to herself somehow.

Agreed with cap'n.....this smells to high heaven like a coverup of sorts.

That aside though I have to agree with Cow, she exposed herself by doing what she did, but she was involved in an election so I understand why she did it.

[LChoy]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I also find it funny that they've released a radio intercept from Al Queda congratulating itself over the kill. Yet Al Queda is notorious for taking credits for acts on their website, and they haven't posted there yet.

Not trying to spark a conspiracy theory thread, but when 9/11 happened, Al Queda didn't claim responsibility and even posted a condolense message on their website within a couple of hours (if I recall correctly)...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by transplant99

If I understand Islamic custom, there was no autopsy performed. They had the alleged doctor on TV a while ago stating that she died from a fractured skull after hitting her head on the sunroof that was on either side of her as she stood in the vehicle.

In so many words they stated that there were no foreign objects seen in her body through x-ray, so therefore she did this to herself somehow.

Agreed with cap'n.....this smells to high heaven like a coverup of sorts.

That aside though I have to agree with Cow, she exposed herself by doing what she did, but she was involved in an election so I understand why she did it.

Pretty convenient wording since the hospital eyewitness in the paper this morning mentioned that the first bullet exited out of the side of her head. the second bullet exited out of her chest.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by lchoy

Not trying to spark a conspiracy theory thread, but when 9/11 happened, Al Queda didn't claim responsibility and even posted a condolense message on their website within a couple of hours (if I recall correctly)...

Your right on that, but their path since then has been to claim credit for every act.

Its interesting to note, that its expected that Osama Bin Laden is going to make a 53 minute address today focusing around Iraq.