Canada urged to lift visa rules for EU states

[fredr123]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

Thanks for finally addressing my question directly. I agree it would be slightly easier for them to get into Canada, but as I've argued before there are many more viable options for them if there intent is to illegally immigrate. Further, you are wrong when you say they have the same rights as a Canadian. There's no way for them to work (legally) and collect social benefits unless they are a Canadian citizen.

At the risk of putting words in Jolinar's mouth, I think this was part of his initial concern. There are plenty of ways for illegal immigrants (however you want to define that word) to work in Canada illegally. Happens all the time. These workers, in turn, do not contribute to social programs in Canada by paying taxes and all those other awesome deductions that come off our paychecks every two weeks. That's a problem, I think, in Jolinar's eyes.

In the same way, these same illegal immigrants do have access to a lot of social support systems in Canada despite their status here. There's no way an ambulance is going to refuse to take a sick person to the hospital if the person really is in need. They don't pause to ask for a Permanent Resident Card. Likewise, hospitals will treat these people and ask about status and insurance later. Invariably, illegals don't have health insurance and/or can't/won't pay the bills on their own. Those who pay taxes to the government are left picking up the tab. That, again, is part of the problem I thought Jolinar was trying to identify.

Perhaps the way to "fix" these problems is not to prevent illegal migrants from working or staying in Canada. Maybe the ideal solution involves ensuring they pay their way once they're here.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by fredr123

At the risk of putting words in Jolinar's mouth, I think this was part of his initial concern. There are plenty of ways for illegal immigrants (however you want to define that word) to work in Canada illegally. Happens all the time. These workers, in turn, do not contribute to social programs in Canada by paying taxes and all those other awesome deductions that come off our paychecks every two weeks. That's a problem, I think, in Jolinar's eyes.

In the same way, these same illegal immigrants do have access to a lot of social support systems in Canada despite their status here. There's no way an ambulance is going to refuse to take a sick person to the hospital if the person really is in need. They don't pause to ask for a Permanent Resident Card. Likewise, hospitals will treat these people and ask about status and insurance later. Invariably, illegals don't have health insurance and/or can't/won't pay the bills on their own. Those who pay taxes to the government are left picking up the tab. That, again, is part of the problem I thought Jolinar was trying to identify.

Perhaps the way to "fix" these problems is not to prevent illegal migrants from working or staying in Canada. Maybe the ideal solution involves ensuring they pay their way once they're here.

I don't think any Canadian wants people to be able to work here illegally and/or exploit the social system, not just Jolinar. What I'm arguing with Jolinar is that I don't think dropping the visa requirements for these five or six nations listed in the originally posted article, is going to bring an influx of illegal Eastern European workers into Canada. My point is its still going to be difficult and illegal for them to work here even if they do gain entry. What makes Canada such a desirable destination that they would eliminate other closer, equally prosperous nations where they can move to, and in most cases work, legally?

As we can see the chart below, the countries in question have a wide variety of very prosperous countries available to them where they can live and work with no restrictions whatsoever:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom...nt_for_workers

Being worried about these workers trying to immigrate to Canada is almost like US being worried that residents of the poorest Canadian provinces are going to immigrate and try to illegally work in the United States. Why would these people do this when its far, far easier and legal for them just to go somewhere else within Canada instead?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

In order for your arguement to hold water, Canada would have to have more unskilled jobs available that every single European country, which just simply isn't true. The fact still remains that there are closer, easier and more viable options for the Eastern European immigrant. You've still done nothing to disprove this in my eyes. I really see nothing attracting unskilled Eastern European labour to Canada. It's far away, expensive to get to, and there's a risk of getting caught trying to work illegally in the country.

Canada doesn't have to have more available jobs than all of Europe combined to have these people wish to come to Canada. You see no attraction for unskiled workers in Canada? How about the fact that unskilled workers in Poland for example are making a few hundred dollars a month......they could be making 5-10 times as much in Canada. That is not insentive enough? As far as being expensive.....$400 for a ticket from London to Calgary. Not that expensive.

We're not debating the social programs of European countries here, we're talking about the programs being more appealing to immigrants who (in your arguement anyway) are like parasites seting their sights on social systems to milk for all they're worth. If this we're the case as you claim, why wouldn't they all just bee-line for Sweden and Denmark? If they're in the EU already, they can freely cross those borders without even a passport check.

Most EU countries have certain residency requirements inorder to obtain social benifits. I don't know what kind of security features there are to prevent abuse. But since income tax in Sweden can be as high as 55% I can see why they would need it so high. To pay for all the social programs for its citizens and non-residents.

Thanks for finally addressing my question directly. I agree it would be slightly easier for them to get into Canada,

Slightly?

Further, you are wrong when you say they have the same rights as a Canadian. There's no way for them to work (legally) and collect social benefits unless they are a Canadian citizen.

They are afforded the same charter rights as every Canadian other than the citizenship rights. Yes, they need a work permit to work illegally, but that is my point, they won't have one, ergo, they won't be paying into the social net. But....healthcare cannot be refused and many times these people use others healthcare cards to obtain services. There is no real way for healthcare professionals to verify who the owner of a health card is. (atleast in alberta. No picture no security features.) If they do claim refugee status they get free healthcare. Now I can't find anything right now but I have seen a few reports about the cost of unpaid healthcare costs. One showed that last year BC was out 10 million dollars because foreign nationals receiving healthcare services and then not paying. Now this wuould also include legal visitors to Canada.

No one from the countries in questions can claim refugeee status, so its totally unrelated. To be honest, to me it just sounds like more disdain for immigrants and refugees. I suggest we stick to the original topic.

Ummm....yes they can. There is not one country in the world that Canada would not entertain an application for protection from. Including Germany, Poland, UK or even the US. So I am not sure who told you they couldn't.

Like I said before, this seems crazy to me. Its difficult and expensive to immigrate once, why would anyone want to do it twice? Especially people you're classifiying as 'unskilled labour', who likely don't have much money to begin with. I'd really, really like to see some proof of your claim.

I was talking about Refugees not legal immigrants. Why would they go through the hasle to do it twice? Many reasons. Family in Canada, no jobs in their home country, not integrating into that country. Why do you think there were those riots in France last year? Because the immigrants/refugees could not find work and could not better there lives (as they saw it).

Wrong. I think you're confused as to the meaning of immigration. Immigration is a resettlement in another country, not just movement of people into another country temporarily. By your definition, if I take a vacation in France, I'm immigrating there. This is wrong. These countries just want to be able to enter Canada without a visa, not permanently move here. There's a big difference.

No, you are the one taking the word literally. Immigration Canada deals with every foreign national to Canada regardless if they are visiting, working, studing or permanently immigrating. They all fall under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by fredr123

At the risk of putting words in Jolinar's mouth, I think this was part of his initial concern. There are plenty of ways for illegal immigrants (however you want to define that word) to work in Canada illegally. Happens all the time. These workers, in turn, do not contribute to social programs in Canada by paying taxes and all those other awesome deductions that come off our paychecks every two weeks. That's a problem, I think, in Jolinar's eyes.

That is what I am saying and thanks for articulating it for me.

[BlackEleven]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Canada doesn't have to have more available jobs than all of Europe combined to have these people wish to come to Canada. You see no attraction for unskiled workers in Canada?

Not from the countries in the article. And I've provided the reasons post after post, which you've ignored.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

How about the fact that unskilled workers in Poland for example are making a few hundred dollars a month......they could be making 5-10 times as much in Canada. That is not insentive enough? As far as being expensive.....$400 for a ticket from London to Calgary. Not that expensive.

Well you just said they're making a few hundred dollars a month. I think $400 would be pretty damn expensive then. And that's just the plane ticket. That doesn't include the cost of living when they get here, likely without a job. Why not go where they can take a bus and work legally? You've still ignored this point.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Most EU countries have certain residency requirements inorder to obtain social benifits. I don't know what kind of security features there are to prevent abuse. But since income tax in Sweden can be as high as 55% I can see why they would need it so high. To pay for all the social programs for its citizens and non-residents.

This whole time you've been going on about immigrants skirting the requirements and illegally obtaining benefits, but all of a sudden they're going to do it legally in Sweden?? Why would Sweden's requirements for social benefits be a deterent for them to move there and not Canada's?? And as you have pointed out time and time again, illegal works don't pay taxes, so why would they care about the tax rate?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

They are afforded the same charter rights as every Canadian other than the citizenship rights. Yes, they need a work permit to work illegally, but that is my point, they won't have one, ergo, they won't be paying into the social net. But....healthcare cannot be refused and many times these people use others healthcare cards to obtain services. There is no real way for healthcare professionals to verify who the owner of a health card is. (atleast in alberta. No picture no security features.) If they do claim refugee status they get free healthcare. Now I can't find anything right now but I have seen a few reports about the cost of unpaid healthcare costs. One showed that last year BC was out 10 million dollars because foreign nationals receiving healthcare services and then not paying. Now this wuould also include legal visitors to Canada.

Well hell then, let's just stop everyone coming into Canada, wouldn't want to get stuck with anyone's unpaid bills. How would these visitors be more likely to leave unpaid bills than countries that don't require visas?

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Ummm....yes they can. There is not one country in the world that Canada would not entertain an application for protection from. Including Germany, Poland, UK or even the US. So I am not sure who told you they couldn't.

Ummm.... they don't need an entry visa to claim refugee status. So dropping the requirement for the visa changes nothing in regards to refugees. Not sure why you keep brining it up.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

I was talking about Refugees not legal immigrants. Why would they go through the hasle to do it twice? Many reasons. Family in Canada, no jobs in their home country, not integrating into that country. Why do you think there were those riots in France last year? Because the immigrants/refugees could not find work and could not better there lives (as they saw it).

Again, refugees are irrelevant to the discussion.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

No, you are the one taking the word literally. Immigration Canada deals with every foreign national to Canada regardless if they are visiting, working, studing or permanently immigrating. They all fall under the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act.

I don't see any point in arguing semantics with you here -- I believe we're both talking about the chances of people on visas intending to immigrate (ie settle in Canada, not visit), right?

[Oil Stain]

You guys are overlooking the most important aspect of this issue:






Eastern European women are HOT!!!.....Let 'em in....

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Well, I have never been to Canada so its only one person
What I am trying to say, Canada is not primarily on radar when people from here want to move out. I am not saying its not happening, of course it is but I would bet that the number of Eastern Europeans that would illegaly overstay in Canada would be neligible compared to other nationals.

True...compared to India, Pakistan, Iraq, Columbia.....but all those countries require visas to help reduce that risk. That is the point.

How many of them were EU citizens? Of course if you are from a war torn country you will do anything to just move away. Trust me, the situation in Eastern EU countries is not that bad people would want to move out desperately.

About 40,000 in 2006

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resourc...rmanent/16.asp

As table5 said, try visit places like Prague, you will be amazed.

I know I will be amazed. I haven't been to Europe yet but one day I will. I would love to see the rich history. That doesn't mean that will keep people from leaving to better their lives.

The UK was worried before they lifted the visa requirements (I dont need a passport there, simple ID is enough and I can work there without any restrictions if I wanted to) and what happened? Nothing special,

Not if you talk with the people of UK. I here all the time about how eastern europeans have entered the labour market there and have undercut all the brits working for half as much as what the brits were working for.

immigration grew (mainly Poles) but nowhere near fearmongerers thought it will. Other countries soon followed UK lead, and now only Germany and Austria have strict restrictions for people from Eastern EU countries to live/work there.

More than Germany and Austria have restrictions.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by BlackEleven

Not from the countries in the article. And I've provided the reasons post after post, which you've ignored.

What? You really don't know..... Why are soooooo many Europeans coming to Canada to work right now? Why are so many Canadian Companies actively recruiting over there and geting Labour Market Opinions to bring these people over? Because there isn't the jobs over there for them. As much as you think there is, there isn't.

Well you just said they're making a few hundred dollars a month. I think $400 would be pretty damn expensive then. And that's just the plane ticket. That doesn't include the cost of living when they get here, likely without a job. Why not go where they can take a bus and work legally? You've still ignored this point.

If someone wanted to better themselves they would come up with the money to get to where they want to go. Family (possibly in Canada) friends, any possible savings, selling property.... Again that is my point about them coming here without proving they have the financial support to be here......Right now they have to prove it to a visa officer. How many people have you heard about coming from out east with no money and no job lined up. Hundreds....works the same with with these people. Why can you not understand this. If you only knew what some people do when they travel especially when they try and better themselves or their families. How many times have you heard about people out east coming here with promises of riches and jobs and the streets are paved with gold. A lot of people don't plan anything. They think "hey, I could make a lot of money there. My friend told me they are paying people $25,000 a year to pour coffee. Gee I only make $5000 a year as a hard labourer....I could be rich." It happens ALL the time.

This whole time you've been going on about immigrants skirting the requirements and illegally obtaining benefits, but all of a sudden they're going to do it legally in Sweden?? Why would Sweden's requirements for social benefits be a deterent for them to move there and not Canada's?? And as you have pointed out time and time again, illegal works don't pay taxes, so why would they care about the tax rate?

First of all, you were the one that said "why would they go to Canada when they can get free social assistance in Sweden legally" I did not say whether it was legal or illegal, I said they can get it there and that is why they pay 55% income tax. You just don't get it. You are thinking about things in single terms. People want to go where they can work and be productive and receive benifits. People are not all going to swarm Sweden JUST for the health care....some do.....but they also need to have work. If everyone moved to sweden, there wouldn't be enough work. Right now Canada has plenty of work, plenty of money and a pretty decent social net. That is what people want in life in large part.

Well hell then, let's just stop everyone coming into Canada, wouldn't want to get stuck with anyone's unpaid bills. How would these visitors be more likely to leave unpaid bills than countries that don't require visas?

My head is soar from banging on the counter because you just don't get the big picture. There is always going to be fraudulent use....it can never be stopped. Are some people from non-visa required countries going to do this? Yes. But by having visa requirements, it reduces the risk. Again, they have to prove to an officer that they can support their visit to Canada.

Ummm.... they don't need an entry visa to claim refugee status. So dropping the requirement for the visa changes nothing in regards to refugees. Not sure why you keep brining it up.

What? This is what you said"No one from the countries in questions can claim refugeee status, so its totally unrelated." I said yes they can and you say the above quote. What are you talking about?

If you mean refugees don't require a visa to make an application for protection at a Canadian Consulate...well you are right, that is a no brainer. The consulate can still look at the application and decide from there. If they did not have a visa requirement, they could get on a plane and make an application in Canada.....therefor costing the taxpayers millions of dollars. Migration officers alone intercepted about 6,000 non-genuine visitors last year just at teh airports. Imagine how many got through.

It has cost the taxpayers of Ontario over $200,000 just to deal with these mexican refugees over the last few weeks. It is not cheap.
http://www.canada.com/windsorstar/st...1-560ca40d8e2f

Again, refugees are irrelevant to the discussion.

No they are not

I don't see any point in arguing semantics with you here -- I believe we're both talking about the chances of people on visas intending to immigrate (ie settle in Canada, not visit), right?

Both.

[jolinar of malkshor]

UPDATE

Looks like we are going to re-impose VISA requirements for the Czech Republic because of a large increase in refugee claimants. Looks like I was right about one of the countries.

Canada will reimpose visa requirements on citizens of the Czech Republic because of dramatically increased numbers of Roma asylum-seekers, Czech media are reporting after this week's visit to Prague by Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1205080/

[mykalberta]

Just because the EU are whores to these ex Soviet Bloc states doesnt mean we need to be as well. The EU can go frack themselves. If they want me to have to get a visa to visit Spain or Italy then I will go to South America.

Canada should continue to ignore the EU on this matter.

[Barnes]

I thought I noticed an increase in Skoda's driving around.

[sadora]

It's a bad idea and Canada should stand firm on not lifting the requirement for visas.

Though I do have to agree with Oil Stain on this one...

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

Eastern European women are HOT!!!.....Let 'em in....

perhaps there could a way that Canada only waives the requirement for visas on just Easter European women.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

UPDATE

Looks like we are going to re-impose VISA requirements for the Czech Republic because of a large increase in refugee claimants. Looks like I was right about one of the countries.

Canada will reimpose visa requirements on citizens of the Czech Republic because of dramatically increased numbers of Roma asylum-seekers, Czech media are reporting after this week's visit to Prague by Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1205080/

Ahh good ol' gypsies on the move again, scaring another country ****less so the country tries to shut the door. It is absolutely fascinating when "western" countries lecture "eastern" countries with huge gypsy population about human rights, but when said gypsies come knocking the "human rights" are quickly forgotten and the visa talks start.

I wonder where are Canadian anti-discrimination policies you guys are so proud of now? I mean you have only two options here:

A. gypsies are discriminated against in the Czech republic (which is, IMO, BS); then by not letting them in you in fact send them home where their rights are being violated. Country like Canada wouldn't do that, correct?

B. gypsies are not discriminated in the Czech republic, they go to Canada to exploit welfare system; yet you punish the whole country by imposing visa requirements? Turn those gypsies down immediately at the airport when they ask for refugee status, and they'll stop coming over.

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

UPDATE

Looks like we are going to re-impose VISA requirements for the Czech Republic because of a large increase in refugee claimants. Looks like I was right about one of the countries.

Canada will reimpose visa requirements on citizens of the Czech Republic because of dramatically increased numbers of Roma asylum-seekers, Czech media are reporting after this week's visit to Prague by Citizenship and Immigration Minister Jason Kenney.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...rticle1205080/

Man, I hate issues like this because as much as I try to be open-minded and tolerant, my admittedly limited experiences with Romanis have left me pretty prejudiced against them. I think I've told the story on here before about how I got surrounded and mobbed by a gang of 10-year-old Roma children in St. Petersburg, but they were pretty much an ongoing concern in every eastern-european country I was in. I'm not sure what extent this element is representative of the entire Roma population and those that are applying for asylum, but it's an element I would hate to have in our cities.

[4X4]

Gypsies choose their lifestyle. They're a bunch of thieves and are a scourge on society. They live in communal camps and steal in packs. The women drug their babies and carry them around train stations begging for change. Then when the kids are older, they teach them how to pickpocket in gangs. Then when they're adults, they move on to stealing suitcases and property theft like cars and B&Es. They live their whole life contributing nothing to the society they leech off of. I have no sympathy for them.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Gypsies choose their lifestyle. They're a bunch of thieves and are a scourge on society. They live in communal camps and steal in packs. The women drug their babies and carry them around train stations begging for change. Then when the kids are older, they teach them how to pickpocket in gangs. Then when they're adults, they move on to stealing suitcases and property theft like cars and B&Es. They live their whole life contributing nothing to the society they leech off of. I have no sympathy for them.

Did you plagiarize that from Adolf Hitlers book "Mein Kampf"?

Maybe we should not issue visas to people from Italy, especially Sicily. After all they are nothing but a bunch of gangsters, running around pushing drugs and running prostitutes. Hi jacking trucks down at the docks. Fixing sporting events for the purpose of gambling. Etc. Etc.

[4X4]

Did you seriously just bust out the Hitler card?

Listen to me, I lived in Rome for over a year. Not a single one of them has any job except to rove around in gangs and steal. In all my travels, there they were, at the train stations begging and stealing and then getting into Mercedes' outside and going back to their illegal camps.

[burn_baby_burn]

Originally Posted by 4X4

Did you seriously just bust out the Hitler card?

Listen to me, I lived in Rome for over a year. Not a single one of them has any job except to rove around in gangs and steal. In all my travels, there they were, at the train stations begging and stealing and then getting into Mercedes' outside and going back to their illegal camps.

I couldn't help it. The more I read your post the more it sounded like the narration from a Nazi propaganda film.

My travels through Europe have been pretty limited. Still to claim that every single person from that entire race is scum seems pretty far fetched. If I believe your take on that. I would have to believe that Aboriginal Canadians are useless as well. Not to mention Mexicans, Africans, East Indians, the Irish. When does it stop?

[BlackArcher101]

How difficult is it to get this visa? Is it simliar to the one you need to visit Austrailia where it takes you only 15 minutes online to get one?

[4X4]

Originally Posted by burn_baby_burn

I couldn't help it. The more I read your post the more it sounded like the narration from a Nazi propaganda film.

My travels through Europe have been pretty limited. Still to claim that every single person from that entire race is scum seems pretty far fetched. If I believe your take on that. I would have to believe that Aboriginal Canadians are useless as well. Not to mention Mexicans, Africans, East Indians, the Irish. When does it stop?

The difference between the races you listed and the gypsies as that gypsies deleberately segregate themselves from the society they live in. They deliberately aren't registered citizens. They deliberately choose this lifestyle and they aren't ashamed about it.

I'm sure that somewhere out there some of them have abandonded the lifestyle and chosen to join society. At that point they become citizens of the nation they live in and cease to be gypsies. They would then be Italian/Spanish/French/Romanian with Roma background.

Gypsies are a group of people that do exactly what I described. They refuse to become citizens of any nation and therefore cannot be deported, no matter how many times they're caught doing illegal activity.