Excellent Esquire Article: "Welcome to Idiot America"

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

hate and intolerance isnt rational....

I think it boils down to fear.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

hate and intolerance isnt rational....

Tolerance of ignorance and lies is irrational.

[Biff]

...on the other hand, forgetting inflammatory nonsense like "we all saddled-up on dinosaurs", there are, in point of fact, serious scientific issues surrounding the origin question. NO....don't go all silly and suggest I'm denying natural selection, or carbon dating, or a host of other absolutely dependable scientific disciplines. The questions are in relation to small things like, for instance, the basic absence of a wide-spread inter-species transitional fossil record that really ought to exist, the relative difficulty explaining the initial existence of the universe and, for a late-night tri-fecta of imponderables, lets go with the rampant abuse of the basic physical law in operation in life to whit that, left to themselves, systems tend towards disorder rather than increased order. Draw your own conclusions, but to sweep away all origin question enquiries as misguided and ignorant ramblings of the foolish isn't any more reasonable. Not all that long ago, everyone was certain the earth was flat, was the center of the universe, and bleeding people was a good basic medical practice. Science is not omniscient either.

[MarchHare]

Not all that long ago, everyone was certain the earth was flat, was the center of the universe, and bleeding people was a good basic medical practice. Science is not omniscient either.

People may have believed those things at one point, but the rise of the scientific method put a quick end to that. Nobody properly following the tenants of the scientific method believed the earth was the center of the universe. Indeed, science really took off with Copernicus and Kepler (and later Galileo) disproving that notion. After around 1600 or so when science really caught on amongst the philosophers of Europe, ideas like a geocentric universe and medical bloodletting vanished in short order once better theories were proposed, properly tested, and subjected to peer review. If anything, it was largely religious leaders who claimed that the universe was geocentric, because that's what it said in the Book of Joshua and elsewhere in the Bible. Galileo was excommunicated for having the gall to challenge that notion.

As for a flat earth, it's a great misconception that people held that view in the last 1000 years or longer. The ancient Egyptians and Greeks knew the Earth was round. So too did Columbus; he was, afterall, searching for a shortcut to the Orient when he discovered the new world.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Tolerance of ignorance and lies is irrational.

Sure, but you don't believe any of that crap, nor do I so it's rational, but because someone else does, wanting to force your will on them its irrational.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

People may have believed those things at one point, but the rise of the scientific method put a quick end to that. Nobody properly following the tenants of the scientific method believed the earth was the center of the universe. Indeed, science really took off with Copernicus and Kepler (and later Galileo) disproving that notion. After around 1600 or so when science really caught on amongst the philosophers of Europe, ideas like a geocentric universe and medical bloodletting vanished in short order once better theories were proposed, properly tested, and subjected to peer review. If anything, it was largely religious leaders who claimed that the universe was geocentric, because that's what it said in the Book of Joshua and elsewhere in the Bible. Galileo was excommunicated for having the gall to challenge that notion.

As for a flat earth, it's a great misconception that people held that view in the last 1000 years or longer. The ancient Egyptians and Greeks knew the Earth was round. So too did Columbus; he was, afterall, searching for a shortcut to the Orient when he discovered the new world.

Everyone one is looking for answers, the "simple" answer is in the bible for some, for others its in science, but truth is religion nor science can't give us all the answers....religion doesnt prove there is a god and science can't disprove it...

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Sure, but you don't believe any of that crap, nor do I so it's rational, but because someone else does, wanting to force your will on them its irrational.

I don't want to force my will on anyone. I simply want them to open up their freakin' eyes and take a look around them.

Science is not infailable. No one ever claimed it was. That's why it works. It is constantly updated and revised based on new information. If you touch something and it is hot you get burned. You also change your previous belief that it was cold. These people just keep on touching, refusing to change their beliefs and getting very very scarred in the meantime.

We, as a species, have come so far because we're all working together on the problems we face. If these people would stop living in the beliefs of the past, and instead focused on the problems we are facing now, just think of the further progress that could be made!

[Save Us Sutter]

oops... double post

lousy wireless connection!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Sure, but you don't believe any of that crap, nor do I so it's rational, but because someone else does, wanting to force your will on them its irrational.

Fair enough. But I'm not trying to force my will or beliefs on anyone. I don't expect to change the mind of anyone who believes in this creationist (or any other religious loonery) nonsense. I'm just saying my piece.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

I don't want to force my will on anyone. I simply want them to open up their freakin' eyes and take a look around them.

Science is not infailable. No one ever claimed it was. That's why it works. It is constantly updated and revised based on new information. If you touch something and it is hot you get burned. You also change your previous belief that it was cold. These people just keep on touching, refusing to change their beliefs and getting very very scarred in the meantime.

We, as a species, have come so far because we're all working together on the problems we face. If these people would stop living in the beliefs of the past, and instead focused on the problems we are facing now, just think of the further progress that could be made!

lol the irony or the hypocrisy of it all...see you are talking about religious beliefs,yet we all follow the fundamental beliefs of of most religious people, unless you steal, cheat on your wife, work 7 days week etc..

Believe it or not religion does teach good moral standards and for the most part most religious or non religious people follow those same ideals... just like with everything there is small group who are loud and vocal (extremist) who distort some people's view of the whole group.

[badnarik]

separate church and state and let people do what they want.
i wouldn't mind having ned flanders as a neighbor.

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

lol the irony or the hypocrisy of it all...see you are talking about religious beliefs,yet we all follow the fundamental beliefs of of most religious people, unless you steal, cheat on your wife, work 7 days week etc..

Believe it or not religion does teach good moral standards and for the most part most religious or non religious people follow those same ideals... just like with everything there is small group who are loud and vocal (extremist) who distort some people's view of the whole group.

woah woah woah woah... back up there a bit dude.

I'm not talking about ALL religious beliefs. I've read the Bible and it has some great messages in there. I went to church with my mother back home in Halifax and enjoyed the values that were being taught. Even though I don't personally believe in a God I have no bone to pick with those who do.

It's when your belief blinds you to accepting new information when I have a problem.

Maybe God did create the universe. Until it's proven otherwise I have to keep my mind open to that option.

But maybe he didn't. And maybe those who believe He did should keep their minds open to THAT option.

That's all I am saying.

I don't think even the article itself was suggesting that the "American Idiot" is anyone who believes in God. The "American Idiot" is the person who is so stubborn in their beliefs that they refuse to accept any science that comes along and contradicts them. I know lots of believers who still accept evolution as a fact. It's not that hard. You can agree with science all the way back to the first milisecond without giving up your faith that God created the universe.

From my experience, faith is a very wonderful thing for anyone to have. I applaud them for it. I wish I could be that way sometimes. The problem is when you let your faith get in the way of the truth. That is what causes the friggin' problems in the world.

[McG]

PMFJI and the PMFJO...

but what i have been seeing is a staggering decline in the teaching and use of critical thought.

it doesn't mean being critical, it means challenging fanciful ideas or comments with rational, literate thought.

this apparently is almost extinct.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Save Us Sutter

woah woah woah woah... back up there a bit dude.

I'm not talking about ALL religious beliefs. I've read the Bible and it has some great messages in there. I went to church with my mother back home in Halifax and enjoyed the values that were being taught. Even though I don't personally believe in a God I have no bone to pick with those who do.

It's when your belief blinds you to accepting new information when I have a problem.

Maybe God did create the universe. Until it's proven otherwise I have to keep my mind open to that option.

But maybe he didn't. And maybe those who believe He did should keep their minds open to THAT option.

That's all I am saying.

I don't think even the article itself was suggesting that the "American Idiot" is anyone who believes in God. The "American Idiot" is the person who is so stubborn in their beliefs that they refuse to accept any science that comes along and contradicts them. I know lots of believers who still accept evolution as a fact. It's not that hard. You can agree with science all the way back to the first milisecond without giving up your faith that God created the universe.

From my experience, faith is a very wonderful thing for anyone to have. I applaud them for it. I wish I could be that way sometimes. The problem is when you let your faith get in the way of the truth. That is what causes the friggin' problems in the world.

religion or not - that's human nature and maybe someday it will change through evolution, but i doubt it evolution isnt here to make things perfect...the problems in the world are caused by people ,whether its religously motivated, racially, politcally or financially...people cause the worlds problem not any idealogy or "thing",,People will always find a reason to push their cause

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by McG

PMFJI and the PMFJO...

but what i have been seeing is a staggering decline in the teaching and use of critical thought.

it doesn't mean being critical, it means challenging fanciful ideas or comments with rational, literate thought.

this apparently is almost extinct.

not sure its on the decline, its just the internet has open up a forum for every type to spew whatever crap is in their head and the media has been sucking it up like its common thought.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

True, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with the content of the article. The purpose of the essay wasn't to say, "haha, those dumbass Americans sure are stupid!" but rather to point out that a sizable segment of the American population has embraced a culture of willful ignorance, where they believe and teach children that humans rode saddleback on dinosaurs or that a supernatural proposal without any factual basis deserves equal standing in school classrooms to a scientific theory that has withstood the peer review of the top biologists in the world for nearly 200 years.

Which is equaly crazy as the notion of a sizable segment of the Canadian population that believe public health care is the way to go without any factual basis that it is in fact more efficient than private health care...

Gotta love how Canadians sit on their high horses when they critize Americans for being far on the "crazy religious" side, when they themselves are way too far on the "crazy leftist side" which can be argued is a religion too (with dogmas, saints (Chomsky) etc).

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

religion or not - that's human nature and maybe someday it will change through evolution, but i doubt it evolution isnt here to make things perfect...the problems in the world are caused by people ,whether its religously motivated, racially, politcally or financially...people cause the worlds problem not any idealogy or "thing",,People will always find a reason to push their cause

I'm not really sure what you're arguing now. Or if you're even arguing at all anymore.

First it was most people follow the basic religious principals and I am ignorant for not seeing that.

Now it's people are greedy and will push their cause (religious or otherwise) far enough to cause all the problems in the world.

I'm lost dude.

But I will respond to this post by saying if people took the time to look at the facts, the real TRUTH of their situation, those problems wouldn't be near as bad as they are. So far this thread has been mostly about religion but you're right... there are many other "causes" that blind people to the truth. But it comes down to the same basic premise... people are blinded by their faith that what they are doing is "right". They will stubbornly follow their beliefs right off a cliff if that's where it leads them. Whether it's a belief in their God, their political party, their race or whatever.

[Flame Of Liberty]

Originally Posted by The President

I think America is unfortunately idiot is mostly because of her history.
They said in their Consistution that everone is equal, but they did not include blacks, Indians and other minorites and immigrants as well. Only the uberprivileged people had/has these rights who should be for all the US citizens...

And then slavery, Indian massacre, KKK, Jews exclusions and other evenements who are black marks on America's history....

There are many facts and reasons why America is unfortunately idiot, but these reasons (and the others you stated from the Esquire's article) are clearly evident.

Institutional racism and discrimination in America.

Great topic MarchHare.

LOL good lord

OK lets criticize Americans, why not, but lets not forget that black tribal chiefs were often selling their "own people" to foreigners, what does that say about them? There was also "Intra-African" slave trade too. What does this say about their history? Also, I find it funny no one ever mentions that Arab slave trade in Africa. How about that mark on their history?

This racism and discrimination of blacks is blown way out of proportion. People hate each other for all kind of reasons, or without any reason at all. Trying to pin all the blame on "rich white america" is ridiculous. There is a lot of racism between Arabs, blacks, asians too.

As for American constitution, its the greatest piece of a political document ever written.

[Save Us Sutter]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Which is equaly crazy as the notion of a sizable segment of the Canadian population that believe public health care is the way to go without any factual basis that it is in fact more efficient than private health care...

Gotta love how Canadians sit on their high horses when they critize Americans for being far on the "crazy religious" side, when they themselves are way too far on the "crazy leftist side" which can be argued is a religion too (with dogmas, saints (Chomsky) etc).

Are you saying it's just as dumb to believe in public health care as it is to believe that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs?

This wasn't really a Canada vs America or a left vs right thing whatsoever.

Most of this thread has been about people believing in something that has been scientifically proven to be impossible. If health care is your only example then i would suggest that you are either missing the point or you're letting your own political leanings get in the way of a totally unrelated discussion.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flame Of Liberty

Blah blah blah....

As for American constitution, its the greatest piece of a political document ever written.

Greater than the Magna Carta?

Bold statement.

and just as rediculous as the rest of your posts