Manitoba First Nations Want Cellphone Revenue

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

The diseases that you guys are talking about now do not really apply to Natives now adays. They have built their own tolerance to these diseases not to mention they are vacinated like everyone else. These diseases you are talking about do not affect Natives anymore, no more than you or I.

Other than alcohol abuse, and pollution (which was inevitable) the Natives would experience many of the same illnesses as Europeans. This arguement doesn't fly anymore.

Okay,
we're beyond arguing the standard of living piont now vs 500 years ago, as it is a little bit subjective, and wholey irrelevant to the point of the discussion.

[lifer]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

I think there would be a rather large contingent of people that would say that technological advancemet aside, the standard of living for many Natives today is lower than it was 500 years ago.

I would say that at this point, the debate is how much is self inflicted, and how conterproductive to fixing the situation are claims such as this one about cell phone signals.

I've been through a lot of reserves, and I gotta say, living in a teepee and hunting for a living would probably be preferable to some of the places I've seen. Certainly this is a group of people that at one time were tremendously disadvantaged, but at this point there are any number of programs avaialbe to help make their lives better, but when their leadership pulls stunts like this it creats a culture looking for handouts, and those of us on the outside see the entire comunity as greedy.

Untill the leadership of a lot of bands start using the advantages afforded to their community properly, and to better the lives of the rest of the band, instead of looking for handouts like this, the problem will persist.

I think that large contigent of people would be the same contigent of people who want to get money for transmitting cell phone signals through their air space.
It is a weak argument when it has a disclaimer that says "technological advancement aside". Any aboriginal person who's standard of living is below what is was 500 years ago can blame nobody but themselves.

I would say that living on free land, buying groceries with money that they do nothing to earn, and having a heated structure to live in is far better than living in a teepee and hunting for a living. As you said, there are so many programs in place to help them succeed, that I do not feel bad for those who fail, and I disrespect those who want more.

If they want to charge us for transmitting cell phone signals through their air space; then I why don't we start pushing for aboriginal levies on groceries, gasoline, cars, clothes, firearms, electricity, entertainment, and anything else that they want to consume that comes from our culture. See how they like that. They use Europeans as an excuse for their problems, and funnily enough, they do it through newspapers, computers, television and radio rather than smoke signals.

[Winsor_Pilates]

It's sad how a story about one dumb request from one tribe becomes a collective native bashing on CP.
I wish I could say I'm surprised

[lifer]

Originally Posted by ken0042

I somewhat agree with what you are trying to say; in that there is some value in going from the stone age to the iron age practically overnight. And an analogy I often bring out is let's say aliens land, offer us all this great technology; but want Antarctica in exchange. We agree, and once we are a community in the galaxy we see that we got the shaft.

However in your example; many of those issues were brought about by the white man. Disease, pollution of drinking water, and IIRC the horse didn't show up in North America until the Europeans brought them over.

Good analogy. My point would be that once we are a community in the galaxy, we are better off than we are now, and we would have a chance to catch up with the rest of the communities. We woudl have a choice in how we act. The natives act as though they have no options.

As to your last paragraph, I have seen them in doctors offices for things other than disease, such as cuts, and broken bones. A water source can be polluted by means other than human caused pollution. Treated water is better than water with parasites in it. As far as horses are concerned, I forgot about the fact that we brought those over too. I guess I can correct that. When i pass them on the highway, they are not walking in mokasins, wearing deer skin. Most are in very high emission vehicles (but they take oh-so-good care of the environment) wearing manufactured clothing.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It's sad how a story about one dumb request from one tribe becomes a collective native bashing on CP.
I wish I could say I'm surprised

Right. I forgot to tow the politicaly correct/NDP line of "Kill Whitey".

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay,
we're beyond arguing the standard of living piont now vs 500 years ago, as it is a little bit subjective, and wholey irrelevant to the point of the discussion.

I am not the one who tried to use that comparison.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

It's sad how a story about one dumb request from one tribe becomes a collective native bashing on CP.
I wish I could say I'm surprised

If you dont think this is a national issue within the Native community.....you need to take off your Rose coloured glasses.

[Ironhorse]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Good God, that is rediculous. What is more rediculous is that it seems like it is getting some consideration.

Perhaps the only reason it seems to be getting some "consideration" is because telling the First Nations to "shove it" on this would be political suicide...

[lifer]

Originally Posted by fredr123

I tend to agree with what you're saying. Before the arrival of Europeans and their industry, I don't think many native people had to worry about running into contaminated water anyway. Likewise, they probably didn't worry about having to treat many diseases and other ailments since a lot of them didn't exist until the Europeans showed up.

They still had diseases, but they didn't identify them as diseases of the body, they had different views of sickness and thus, different explantions, and treaments. When Europeans showed up we gave them another way of thinking about it. Of course the specific diseases were different, but to act as though they didn't have illnesses of their own would be idiotic.

[Burninator]

Is there a precedent for such a case? Has anyone every charged or even restricted air waves travelling over a particular area of land?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by lifer

Most are in very high emission vehicles (but they take oh-so-good care of the environment) wearing manufactured clothing.

Or they are hitchhiking...like last week when I picked up three of them out side Ponoka....all three looked like they just got out of prison. The second thing they said to me was "cha...man....you do drugs???"

Yes Yes, the entire native population is not like that, but I have grown up with Natives my entire life and most of the ones I have encounterd have no desire to better themselves.

[daveyboy]

I would caution all not to paint a very diverse group of Canadian First Nations with one not-so-positive brush.

As for the disease and illness issue, our populations were decimated by small pox amongst other diseases. This isn't ancient history, forced dislocation and relocation to residential schools went on well into the 20th century.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by Ironhorse

Perhaps the only reason it seems to be getting some "consideration" is because telling the First Nations to "shove it" on this would be political suicide...

Ya know, there are days when I REALLY want to get in to politics to do just that, committ political suicide. Someone in the goverment really needs to stand up and say this is f'ing stupid, go shove it where the sun don't shine. I, for one, would be VERY impressed with any politician who had the balls to do just that. That is the kind of politician we need, not the type that is worried about protecting their political butts and always saing "the right thing".

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Ya know, there are days when I REALLY want to get in to politics to do just that, committ political suicide. Someone in the goverment really needs to stand up and say this is f'ing stupid, go shove it where the sun don't shine. I, for one, would be VERY impressed with any politician who had the balls to do just that. That is the kind of politician we need, not the type that is worried about protecting their political butts and always saing "the right thing".

Vote Warren Beatty!

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

If you dont think this is a national issue within the Native community.....you need to take off your Rose coloured glasses.

Lets say it is a national issue. Does that justify the stereotyping of every single native?
Do you truely belive every native in this country wants your money?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Lets say it is a national issue. Does that justify the stereotyping of every single native?
Do you truely belive every native in this country wants your money?

Because that is what I said and others have said!!!! Geshhh

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Lets say it is a national issue. Does that justify the stereotyping of every single native?
Do you truely belive every native in this country wants your money?

Where'd he say that?

[Hemi-Cuda]

the American method here seems much simpler

[daveyboy]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Lets say it is a national issue. Does that justify the stereotyping of every single native?
Do you truely belive every native in this country wants your money?

Exactly! I don't want your money, I just want the to live a normal life, the Flames to wn the cup and the Oilers to suck.

I think some of you would do well trying to be Native for a week, it's like wearing a red badge of shame just because some Native people around Ponoka were on drugs or one band in Manitoba is being crazy. If I were to judge White people by many of the posts in just this thread it wouldn't be a very positive outlook either.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by lifer

I think that large contigent of people would be the same contigent of people who want to get money for transmitting cell phone signals through their air space.
It is a weak argument when it has a disclaimer that says "technological advancement aside". Any aboriginal person who's standard of living is below what is was 500 years ago can blame nobody but themselves.

I would say that living on free land, buying groceries with money that they do nothing to earn, and having a heated structure to live in is far better than living in a teepee and hunting for a living. As you said, there are so many programs in place to help them succeed, that I do not feel bad for those who fail, and I disrespect those who want more.

If they want to charge us for transmitting cell phone signals through their air space; then I why don't we start pushing for aboriginal levies on groceries, gasoline, cars, clothes, firearms, electricity, entertainment, and anything else that they want to consume that comes from our culture. See how they like that. They use Europeans as an excuse for their problems, and funnily enough, they do it through newspapers, computers, television and radio rather than smoke signals.

Regardless of your position on when their standard of living is/was better, the fact of the matter is that right now on most reserves the standard of living is significantly lower than the average Canadian, and as I've said a few times in this thread, I believe a large portion of this disparity is self inflicted, or caused by their own leadership who lack either the desire or ability to help their community change for the better. This newest claim may be an example of a chief who want's to help his community, but the way he is going about doing it is a clear example that he has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA how to go about fixing the problems in his community.