The Phoenix Lights

[photon]

Originally Posted by worth

The difference between a satellite though is you look straight up.

If your looking at a flare, you have to look through much more atmosphere, because it's more along the horizon which is much more dense.

True, but if the flares were 100 miles away that's still a lot less than the what, 600 or 800 miles of atmosphere (though of course it gets thin quite quickly).

Without knowing atmospheric conditions, the actual brightness of the flares, etc, it's impossible to make a judgement one way or the other.

[photon]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I actually do believe they are flares. I think they look like flares, but I can't believe they were that far away. I wouldn't be surprised if it was some sort of mistake, and these things were dropped too close to populated areas and they are just covering their asses with this "it was 130 miles away" excuse.

Could be. I also found one guy who used the different sources to try to triangulate the things:

http://brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights1.html

I think it was mentioned earlier that the sighting lasted 1 hour.

I don't think the flares were visible for 1 hour, it was more like 4-5 minutes wasn't it?

[photon]

Originally Posted by worth

I believe in hard science as well, but it's not unscientific to think that there would be other life out there. Infact, it's quite the opposite.

On the other hand, having ET visiting us here is a bit of a long shot because of the fact that the universe is so vast.

I totally agree, it's likely there's other life out there.. though maybe not in our galaxy, since on a galactic time scale anyone that got to the point of colonizing the galaxy (which is pretty much inevitable unless you destroy yourself) should have left behind a lot of evidence of it.

(For aside reading on that, check out the Fermi Paradox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

But there's nothing to show they're visiting earth secretly out side of blurry videos, crop circles made by mischievous people, and hypnotically suggested memories.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by photon

True, but if the flares were 100 miles away that's still a lot less than the what, 600 or 800 miles of atmosphere (though of course it gets thin quite quickly).

Without knowing atmospheric conditions, the actual brightness of the flares, etc, it's impossible to make a judgement one way or the other.

The atmosphere is not very thick. I heard if you compare the earth to an apple, the skin of the apple is actually thicker than our atmosphere in relative terms.

There is no definite boundary between the atmosphere and outer space. It slowly becomes thinner and fades away into space. Three quarters of the atmosphere's mass is within 11 km of the planetary surface. In the United States, persons who travel above an altitude of 50.0 miles (80.5 km) are designated as astronauts. An altitude of 120 km (75 mi or 400,000 ft) marks the boundary where atmospheric effects become noticeable during re-entry. The Karman line, at 100 km (62 miles), is also frequently used as the boundary between atmosphere and outer space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_atmosphere

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by troutman

The atmosphere is not very thick. I heard if you compare the earth to an apple, the skin of the apple is actually thicker than our atmosphere in relative terms.

I've also heard a similar comparison between a globe and the varnish on said globe.

[The Unabomber]

Holy Bejesus,

Although i don't agree with some of Lanny's posts i sure hope he doesn't wake up naked in a phone booth. (Fire In The Sky). JK

Interesting stuff, these kinds of things certainly make me think.

[worth]

Originally Posted by photon

I totally agree, it's likely there's other life out there.. though maybe not in our galaxy, since on a galactic time scale anyone that got to the point of colonizing the galaxy (which is pretty much inevitable unless you destroy yourself) should have left behind a lot of evidence of it.

(For aside reading on that, check out the Fermi Paradox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

But there's nothing to show they're visiting earth secretly out side of blurry videos, crop circles made by mischievous people, and hypnotically suggested memories.

I like the Drake Equation, but you can go anywhere from 100 to a bajillion civilizations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

I beleieve there is life in this galaxy. Infact, there could be life in this solar system that we could find very soon. That would be beneath the icy surface of Europa, a moon of Jupiter. but of course, that wouldn't be intelligent life in the way we're talking about. No Europans are going to fly saucers to earth anytime soon.

I think our own galaxy is 100,000 light years across and consists of 400 billion stars. If there's not an intelligent civilization orbiting one of those 400 billion stars, i'd be suprised. And how many billions of galaxies are there? The odds are just too great for there not to be life.

All you need is a rock in a habitable zone orbit which makes for liquid water. Thats the basis for life right there.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by photon

I totally agree, it's likely there's other life out there.. though maybe not in our galaxy, since on a galactic time scale anyone that got to the point of colonizing the galaxy (which is pretty much inevitable unless you destroy yourself) should have left behind a lot of evidence of it.

(For aside reading on that, check out the Fermi Paradox: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox)

The Drake equation states that:


where:
N is the number of civilizations in our galaxy with which we might expect to be able to communicate at any given time and R* is the rate of star formation in our galaxy fp is the fraction of those stars that have planets ne is average number of planets that can potentially support life per star that has planets fl is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop life fi is the fraction of the above that actually go on to develop intelligent life fc is the fraction of the above that are willing and able to communicate L is the expected lifetime of such a civilization for the period that it can communicate across interstellar space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drake_equation

fi and L, are very difficult to estimate.

Ernst Mayr:

Conclusions: An Improbability of Astronomic Dimensions
What conclusions must we draw from these considerations? No less than six of the eight conditions to be met for SETI success are highly improbable. When one multiplies these six improbabilities with each other, one reaches an improbability of astronomic dimensions.

[worth]

Originally Posted by Krieger99

I think HAARP is behind all of this.

Are you being serious or just joking? I think HAARP should be a consideration for sure, and I never really though of that.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Holy Bejesus,

Although i don't agree with some of Lanny's posts i sure hope he doesn't wake up naked in a phone booth. (Fire In The Sky). JK

Interesting stuff, these kinds of things certainly make me think.

Wake up naked in a phonebooth? Man, that used to happen regularly after a good Friday night!

Something that is intersting is that Snowflake, where Walton of Fire in the Sky fame was reportedly abducted, is only about 100 miles northeast of where I live. As well, Sonora is known for its "energy vortex" and purported to be the site of a window to other worlds (sounding all new agey now). The local natives fear certain parts of the mountains and stay away from them. Maybe they're smarter than us white people.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by worth

All you need is a rock in a habitable zone orbit which makes for liquid water. Thats the basis for life right there.

SETI:

http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/seti/

Astronomers think they will soon to able to detect planets with water in the habitable zones near other stars.

http://www.planetary.org/explore/top...ts/extrasolar/

http://www.planetary.org/news/2006/0...nt_Planet.html

One reason is the new planet's mass. At around five times the mass of Earth, the new planet, designated OGLE–2005-BLG-390Lb, is the lowest-mass planet ever detected outside the solar system. And when one considers that the vast majority of the approximately 170 extrasolar planets detected so far have been Jupiter-like gas giants, dozens or hundreds of times the mass of Earth, the discovery of a planet of only five Earth masses is indeed good news.

But there is more: astronomers believe that the detection of OGLE–2005-BLG-390Lb, announced in the January 26 issue of the journal Nature, is a strong indication that terrestrial-type planets are plentiful, probably much more so than gas giants. And if this is so, then it is quite possible that among these numerous rocky planets there are some that resemble the Earth.

[GeoffSK]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Although i don't agree with some of Lanny's posts i sure hope he doesn't wake up naked in a phone booth. (Fire In The Sky).

This can also happen after the Bustin' Loose pub crawl.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by worth

Are you being serious or just joking? I think HAARP should be a consideration for sure, and I never really though of that.

HAARP? Interesting theory. I guess it might be able to create atmospheric discharges like that. I think HAARP is being used more to disturb the sleep patterns of the general population and create a paranoid delusion, making the general population easier to control. It's amazing what ELMF can do and how it can be used to modify behavior.

[The Unabomber]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Wake up naked in a phonebooth? Man, that used to happen regularly after a good Friday night!

Something that is intersting is that Snowflake, where Walton of Fire in the Sky fame was reportedly abducted, is only about 100 miles northeast of where I live. As well, Sonora is known for its "energy vortex" and purported to be the site of a window to other worlds (sounding all new agey now). The local natives fear certain parts of the mountains and stay away from them. Maybe they're smarter than us white people.

Didn't that happen in Oregon? Been a while since i read anything about that but i thought that's where it was for some reason.

[photon]

Originally Posted by worth

I think our own galaxy is 100,000 light years across and consists of 400 billion stars. If there's not an intelligent civilization orbiting one of those 400 billion stars, i'd be suprised. And how many billions of galaxies are there? The odds are just too great for there not to be life.

All you need is a rock in a habitable zone orbit which makes for liquid water. Thats the basis for life right there.

True, but once that life gets off the rock and starts to colonize the surrounding area, it will start to grow pretty quickly.. similar to the exponential growth on earth. So while it may take humans tens to hundreds of thousands of years to get off the earth and start to colonize the solar system, it would only take another 500,000 years to have at least sent probes to the rest of the galaxy (through Von Neumann probes). And given the age of the galaxy, there's been plenty of time for many many civilizations to have risen, colonized the galaxy, and gone away.. the question then becomes why haven't we found any remnants? Von Neumann probes, Dyson spheres, something.. Though there's lots of reasons why we couldn't see them, or maybe even intelligence almost always destroys itself before it reaches that point...

[J pold]

Maybe it was a sign Lanny trying to show you that Jarome Iginla is a pretty decent hockey player…

I kid! I kid!

[RougeUnderoos]

The source is a little sketchy, but this is a pretty informative article about these flares. It even has a diagram.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/statica...icle53936.html

I don't want to bring religion into another thread, but I thought the inclusion of this little tidbit was quite strange.

"I did not know that such 'parachute flares' existed and never considered the possibility," Col. Fields told WND upon learning the reason behind the mysterious lights. "I am grateful, however, that the truth has been determined and those that may have been disturbed by this event will be able to rest."
Fields, a Christian who originally speculated his sighting might have had something to do with End Time prophecies from the Bible, still wants people to remain vigilant.
"Because this event was explained does not change the fact that we live in perilous times – and we must still be awake, alert, and know that a great deception is still coming."


Here's another link.

http://www.ordnance.org/luu2bb.htm

It's only 2.5 feet long and burns magnesium. If that is visible from 130 miles then, well I don't know what. I can't believe it.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by The Unabomber

Didn't that happen in Oregon? Been a while since i read anything about that but i thought that's where it was for some reason.

Nope, took place in northeastern Arizona, just outside of a town called Snowflake. Travis Walton and his crew were doing some contract clearing of one of the state/national forests when the event took place.

[Alpha_Q]

Originally Posted by photon

True, but once that life gets off the rock and starts to colonize the surrounding area, it will start to grow pretty quickly.. similar to the exponential growth on earth. So while it may take humans tens to hundreds of thousands of years to get off the earth and start to colonize the solar system, it would only take another 500,000 years to have at least sent probes to the rest of the galaxy (through Von Neumann probes). And given the age of the galaxy, there's been plenty of time for many many civilizations to have risen, colonized the galaxy, and gone away.. the question then becomes why haven't we found any remnants? Von Neumann probes, Dyson spheres, something.. Though there's lots of reasons why we couldn't see them, or maybe even intelligence almost always destroys itself before it reaches that point...

There may be evidence right in front of our face, but we can't see it, detect or even imagine it existing. We look for things that we can think up, like these probes and spheres you mention, but 'they' may have used something that is just beyond or imagination or technological understanding. (pretend that we live on an island circa 5 thousand years ago; perhaps we'd imagine an advanced civilization from the past visiting our island in fancy boats, as we wouldn't be able to imagine them using aircraft.)

[photon]

Originally Posted by Alpha_Q

There may be evidence right in front of our face, but we can't see it, detect or even imagine it existing. We look for things that we can think up, like these probes and spheres you mention, but 'they' may have used something that is just beyond or imagination or technological understanding. (pretend that we live on an island circa 5 thousand years ago; perhaps we'd imagine an advanced civilization from the past visiting our island in fancy boats, as we wouldn't be able to imagine them using aircraft.)

Totally true as well, one of the proposed solutions to the paradox; they are so advanced and/or different that we can't know them.