Terrorist to hit around election!!!

[sjwalter]

Originally posted by Table 5+Oct 24 2004, 12:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Table 5 @ Oct 24 2004, 12:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 24 2004, 02:09 PM

And you are privy to the exact information that Card whispered in Bush's ear? You seem to be implying that he knew their were 3 other rogue aircraft....and that the first one that hit was an intended incident and not an accident.

Please enlighten me.

Well im pretty sure he wasnt giving him proper grammar techniques during his book reading session. Whatever he was told must have been very concise and to the point, as I doubt an aid or whover told him would tip-toe around an issue in that circumstance. Even if it was a simple as " a plane rammed into the World Trade Center ", people in that position should assume the worst, get up, and further assess the situation. [/b][/quote]
And i'm sure there were people assuming the worst, and F-18's were on alert after the first plane hit, and the best people the US can offer at that time were working on what happened. Whats more to do?

[RougeUnderoos]

The famous picture of the guy whispering in his ear isn't Bush being told about the first plane hitting, but the second. It was pretty obvious by that time that an attack was under way.

I fail to see how this can even be argued. He knew, we all knew, Norad, the Secret Service, people watching on goddamn television knew that the United States was under attack but he just sat there.

What else could he have done? Oh I don't know, make a couple calls maybe? Show some leadership? Do something.

"Mr. President, the United States is under large-scale attack at this very second. What do you wish to do about it"?

"Nothing."

That sounds reasonable to you guys?

[Table 5]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 02:42 PM
The famous picture of the guy whispering in his ear isn't Bush being told about the first plane hitting, but the second.

Well that now makes me wonder why he wasn't told of the first one getting hit. There was considerable time between the first and second hit, and I would assume if the whole thing was even an accident, something that big should have instantaneously been looked at as suspicious. Where the aides too scared to interrupt the reading of a story to small children or something?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by sjwalter@Oct 24 2004, 07:15 PM
First of all Lanny, how would they know exactly where the plane was that was going to hit the other Trade Center? And can you imagine if they US Air Foce would have shot it down, how people would have reacted because we all know how people sue over anything and they certainly would sue they US Government to sh*t because they can't prove that the plane was actually going to hit the other Trade Center or even the Pentagon. And there were over 200 planes in the air at the time the attacks took place, how do they know which one to shoot down? Of course people called in for help, but who's to say it wouldn't be a prank? And now you're blaming Bush for allowing the terrorists to hit the Trade Center. Pure left wing media BS. You know the government better then i do, and i'm sure there is a hell of a lot or red tape and people to go through regardless if he is president or not in order to shoot the planes down. You're now talking what might have been, instead of dealing with what happened. I would pay to see how Kerry would have reacted and knowing his history he would have probably called it a nusicance.


And Lanny, if the President made one wrong move in that Classroom, all of America would have been over him. There is nothing wrong like Dis said with what he did.

Jesus you promote some really stupid arguments. How would they know where the plane was that was going to hit the other tower?

All planes have file a flight plan before they take off. Anything that veers off of this flight path is reported immediately to NORAD is supposed to be checked on through radio communication, and should that fail, it is escorted back to its flight path (like Payne Stewart's plane eight months prior). All planes also have transponders on them that identify their exact position and all the vitals of the plane and carrier it represents. Now should these transponders go inactive or become turned off there are back up systems that the military relies upon.

There's this really cool invention called Radar. It works off the concept of bouncing sound waves off of objects and tracing them through the use of computers. Its been around for a while and works pretty good. So good infact that this system is what they use in missles to find their targets. Now this radar thingy is so good that they can track things as small as birds these days (the signature size of the F-117 BTW) so tracking an airliner the size of a 757/767 would be bo problem what so ever.

I can't believe you have the balls to even suggest that the government would have thought twice about shooting a threatening aircraft down, especially after the first tower was hit and that the other three aircraft had been identified as being hijacked. Lawsuits are the last thing the government thinks about when under attack. That you would even consider that makes me wonder about you or your values.

Now how would they tell which planes were a threat? Oh gee, I don't know? How about start with the planes off course? Then how about the planes wothout transponders? Then how about the planes that refused to acknowledge communication with them? Are you completely naive and don't think that there are protocols in dealing with situations like this? You don't think that situations like this have been completely thought out and simulated?

Who's to say that the people calling in were not making a prank? Oh my god you're an idiot! Do you know how many federal laws that would break? Do you have any clue what ramifications that would have on your life? Not only that, simpleton, the people who called in first were flight attendants. If they were fooling around they would not only lose their jobs, but also be subject to jail time. Yeah, that's probably what was running through the heads of those who took the calls. Someone is just playing a prank.

You're right on one thing, I know the government and the processes of what happens in a situation a lot better than you. So STFU and listen and learn something. There is no red tape involved once the President gives an executive order. Once the President is informed of the situation he makes the call and that is it. All red tape is taken care of through a carefully orchestrated series of pre-determined protocols identified to handle situations and eliminate the red tape.

And what Kerry would have done is irrelevant. We can speculate all we want, but Kerry was not in the seat of power and what HE would have done does not matter. I highly doubt he would have sat there with a room full of seven year olds reading a book about goats. I would hope he would have been more responsible than Bush and his handlers were.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Table 5@Oct 24 2004, 07:51 PM
Well that now makes me wonder why he wasn't told of the first one getting hit. There was considerable time between the first and second hit, and I would assume if the whole thing was even an accident, something that big should have instantaneously been looked at as suspicious. Where the aides too scared to interrupt the reading of a story to small children or something?

Actually, Bush knew about the first one. He let it slip in a press conference later in the day that he had seen video of the first one hittigng the buiding. Now that is interesting because we dodn't get to see that footage until later in the morning, so something was up.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 24 2004, 08:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 24 2004, 08:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Table 5@Oct 24 2004, 07:51 PM
Well that now makes me wonder why he wasn't told of the first one getting hit. There was considerable time between the first and second hit, and I would assume if the whole thing was even an accident, something that big should have instantaneously been looked at as suspicious. Where the aides too scared to interrupt the reading of a story to small children or something?

Actually, Bush knew about the first one. He let it slip in a press conference later in the day that he had seen video of the first one hittigng the buiding. Now that is interesting because we dodn't get to see that footage until later in the morning, so something was up. [/b][/quote]
I remember that, and he said the first thing he thought was; "What a horrible pilot".

What a tool.

[Table 5]

btw, if you guys wanna whatch the video footage of bush being told of the event, and his reaction in the following 5 minutes, here you go....

http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/bush-911.mov

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 07:42 PM
The famous picture of the guy whispering in his ear isn't Bush being told about the first plane hitting, but the second. It was pretty obvious by that time that an attack was under way.

I fail to see how this can even be argued. He knew, we all knew, Norad, the Secret Service, people watching on goddamn television knew that the United States was under attack but he just sat there.

What else could he have done? Oh I don't know, make a couple calls maybe? Show some leadership? Do something.

"Mr. President, the United States is under large-scale attack at this very second. What do you wish to do about it"?

"Nothing."

That sounds reasonable to you guys?

How do you know this (about the whisper)'Roos...(I'm not being smart, I'm asking)?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 24 2004, 08:00 PM

Actually, Bush knew about the first one. He let it slip in a press conference later in the day that he had seen video of the first one hittigng the buiding. Now that is interesting because we dodn't get to see that footage until later in the morning, so something was up.

So if he knew about the first one he'd obviously given orders to his underlings on how to proceed.

So sitting and continuing to read to 7 year olds wasn't really the lack of response that you would like it to be was it?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 24 2004, 08:19 PM

So if he knew about the first one he'd obviously given orders to his underlings on how to proceed.

So sitting and continuing to read to 7 year olds wasn't really the lack of response that you would like it to be was it?

No Dis, that would incorrect. Richard Clarke was waiting in the command center for the President to come out of the classroom to pass along orders. In fact, Cheney was not available either so there was a lag when neither of the executive officers were available to make a call. But thanks for playing and trying to make excuses for Bush.

[Table 5]

a very detailed look at President Bush's day on 9/11....from his morning jog at 6:30 onward. Uses many media quotes and sources.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timelin...restingday.html

[arsenal]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Oct 24 2004, 02:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Oct 24 2004, 02:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Actually, Bush knew about the first one. He let it slip in a press conference later in the day that he had seen video of the first one hittigng the buiding. Now that is interesting because we dodn't get to see that footage until later in the morning, so something was up.

I remember that, and he said the first thing he thought was; "What a horrible pilot".

What a tool. [/b][/quote]
Whats wrong with that statement?
That is pretty much the first thing I thought at the time. I remember, i was on my way to class, listening to the Team 960, and they mentioned on the radio "We have just been informed that an airplane has flown into the WTC", or something along those lines. My first gut reaction was thinking it was a Sensa or something, and thought "How could you not see the WTC and avoid it".
First time is a possible accident. Second time is deliberate.

Lanny, your statement really makes no sence. You say that Bush, later in the day that he had seen a video of the first one getting hit. Then you say "We didn't see that footage until later in the morning". So, maybe he saw it on CNN like the rest of us? You make it sound like he had seen it before "somewhere else".

Now about the whole "Sitting in a classroom with the children" thing. What did you want him to do? He had 2 choices. 1) Stay calm, and think before he acts. 2) Rush out of the classroom, in a panic.

I am sure NORAD, FAA, the Air Force, FBI, CIA, etc where all scrambling trying to figure out what the hell the planes where doing. If a plane veers (sp) off course, the traffic control tries to make contact. No contact made, tries again. No contact. Then the traffic controller probably then calls someone higher up. That person then notifies said authorities. It takes time to go up the chain of command.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 24 2004, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 24 2004, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 07:42 PM
The famous picture of the guy whispering in his ear isn't Bush being told about the first plane hitting, but the second. It was pretty obvious by that time that an attack was under way.

I fail to see how this can even be argued. He knew, we all knew, Norad, the Secret Service, people watching on goddamn television knew that the United States was under attack but he just sat there.

What else could he have done? Oh I don't know, make a couple calls maybe? Show some leadership? Do something.

"Mr. President, the United States is under large-scale attack at this very second. What do you wish to do about it"?

"Nothing."

That sounds reasonable to you guys?

How do you know this (about the whisper)'Roos...(I'm not being smart, I'm asking)? [/b][/quote]
I don't know what was said exactly but you saw the look on his face. He was told and he was understanding that America was being attacked. He knew it. Then he sat there.

Arguing the point leads me to conclude that you believe that what he did (nothing) was the best thing to do at the time. Do you really believe that? Or do you believe he probably should have done something/anything?

[BlackArcher101]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 24 2004, 04:32 PM
I am sure NORAD, FAA, the Air Force, FBI, CIA, etc where all scrambling trying to figure out what the hell the planes where doing. If a plane veers (sp) off course, the traffic control tries to make contact. No contact made, tries again. No contact. Then the traffic controller probably then calls someone higher up. That person then notifies said authorities. It takes time to go up the chain of command.

I suggest your read the report on the events and the timeline of them.
It tells of what happened with all the organizations while this was going on.

http://www.9-11commission.gov/report/911Report.pdf

There was no order, and no one knew what to do. Horrible horrible organization. I believe at one time, rumors had started and were taken as being true.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 24 2004, 08:32 PM
Whats wrong with that statement?
That is pretty much the first thing I thought at the time. I remember, i was on my way to class, listening to the Team 960, and they mentioned on the radio "We have just been informed that an airplane has flown into the WTC", or something along those lines. My first gut reaction was thinking it was a Sensa or something, and thought "How could you not see the WTC and avoid it".
First time is a possible accident. Second time is deliberate.

Are you serious? That would be like seeing a bus full of people get into a severe accident and thinking; "Gee, what a horrible driver!". Sounds very cold and just plain simple.


The first thing I thought was; " Wow, those poor people. Something must have gone very wrong."

The next thing I thought was; "I hope this wasn't a terrorist attack".

[arsenal]

I read some of the article from the "An interesting day" link provided in the link above me. And the FAA is to assume that a plane has been hijacked if they do not respond, and turn their transponder off, and NORAD is supposed to be notified immediately.

That obviously didn't happen.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald+Oct 24 2004, 08:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Lanny_MacDonald @ Oct 24 2004, 08:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Displaced Flames fan@Oct 24 2004, 08:19 PM

So if he knew about the first one he'd obviously given orders to his underlings on how to proceed.

So sitting and continuing to read to 7 year olds wasn't really the lack of response that you would like it to be was it?

No Dis, that would incorrect. Richard Clarke was waiting in the command center for the President to come out of the classroom to pass along orders. In fact, Cheney was not available either so there was a lag when neither of the executive officers were available to make a call. But thanks for playing and trying to make excuses for Bush. [/b][/quote]
Cut the crap Lanny....I'm not trying to make excuses.

Can you provide me with a link to that information? Or are you just going to be a jerk?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 24 2004, 02:32 PM
Now about the whole "Sitting in a classroom with the children" thing. What did you want him to do? He had 2 choices. 1) Stay calm, and think before he acts. 2) Rush out of the classroom, in a panic.

Sheesh, that's just not true.

Option #3: Don't panic, stand up and say "I gotta go" and walk out of the room. If you don't know what to say, don't say anything. Just leave.

Let's reverse the situation a little bit. Do you think us lefties would be, 3 years on, barking that "George should have finished that goddamn book"! if he had calmly walked out of the room?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally posted by arsenal@Oct 24 2004, 08:32 PM
Now about the whole "Sitting in a classroom with the children" thing. What did you want him to do? He had 2 choices. 1) Stay calm, and think before he acts. 2) Rush out of the classroom, in a panic.

I am sure NORAD, FAA, the Air Force, FBI, CIA, etc where all scrambling trying to figure out what the hell the planes where doing. If a plane veers (sp) off course, the traffic control tries to make contact. No contact made, tries again. No contact. Then the traffic controller probably then calls someone higher up. That person then notifies said authorities. It takes time to go up the chain of command.

For the 10,000th time, what should Bush have done? Stand up and excuse himself saying that there is an important issue that the President needs to attend to. Simple as that. I can't believe that there are still people that believe that sitting there was a proper response to the news he had just received? That was the most pathetic response I've ever seen from a executive in my life. Especially one that has to make a snap call. Those sticking to the old "scare the children" excuse is almost as pathetic as those who are sticking to the "WMD" excuse for Iraq.

The timeline of the events of the day are pretty straight forward. The FAA and NORAD both knew that the planes in question were hijacked a full half hour before the first plane hit the WTC. The FAA and NORAD share radar systems and have redundant systems in place for tracking of everything in the air. NORAD knows of any single object in the air over the Norath American continent at any time. Its their job to know that. They also have protocols to follow in the event of a hijacking and if an airliner is theatened. They have been tested and simulated over and over t limit response time. This was not something new. Heck, they had scrambled on Payne Stewart's jet 8 months earlier and have multiple escorts daily. This was not something new. The only thing that was a kink was the threat of the aircraft and the potential for taking them out with missles. The only one that can give the order to take out a civilian aircraft over US airspace is the President of the United States, and he was in a very important photo-opportunity with some high level seven year olds and could not be disturbed. The chain was broken, right at the top because some seven year olds could not be interrupted when the country was under attack.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 24 2004, 08:35 PM

I don't know what was said exactly but you saw the look on his face. He was told and he was understanding that America was being attacked. He knew it. Then he sat there.

Arguing the point leads me to conclude that you believe that what he did (nothing) was the best thing to do at the time. Do you really believe that? Or do you believe he probably should have done something/anything?

No, I don't believe that his reaction was the best possible reaction.....man, you guys get old with that crap.

I don't believe it was the worst possible reaction either.