bad psychic: sorry to call your dead boyfriend a liar, but he drowned

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't believe in "psychics", but I do believe that humans and other intelligent species, have a "6th sense". I believe that living beings are part of nature, and our minds are linked to nature through time and space. This sometimes gives people "psychic-like" abilities, such as knowing when something bad might happen to a loved one or one's self. There is so much we don't know about the natural environment, and our own brains for that matter.

I DO NOT believe in the type of psychic abilities that this woman claims to have though.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Faith does not mean the suspension of logic and reason... It takes just as much faith to believe in science as it does religion.

Are you for real....Maybe for some of the out there theories on time travel and quantum physics. But most science...???

[GoinAllTheWay]

Very true. But like I said it comes down to degrees, it's impossible to say for sure. It's also impossible to say for sure that Zeus doesn't exist. But if I started a company where people could send me money to have Zeus throw lightning bolts and their enemies, I'm sure I'd be shut down pretty quick.

I will agree with this. There has to be a line drawn between rediculous and plausible. But like other posters have suggested, there is much about the human mind that we don't know about, I honestly don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that there are people in the world that do have some form/level of "pyshcic" abilities. I don't really like to use that word though. Like others have said, more of a sixth sense.

That's saying what I said in different ways. It's funny, because skeptics get accused of being closed minded all the time. But if you ask a skeptic what it would take to change their mind, they'll usually tell you exactly what it would take, in detail. Ask a psychic what it would take to change their mind...

Ask a psychic to change their mind about what?

No, but society and the media by supporting these things give people false hope. Like I said, if I scam someone it's their fault they didn't do their research isn't it? It's their fault they bought into the scam isn't it? It's not their fault though, and that's why we have laws to protect the innocent and the naive.

The reality is the mind is easily manipulated, it's not reasonable to expect people to be able to protect themselves against some of these things without eduction of that. There's a reason these things flourish in places where the overall education level is lower.

See, this whole society thing bothers me. If people choose to believe what society and the media tells them, that's their own problem. It really is up to them what they do with the information they get through those two mediums (no pun intended). Protecting people from their own stupidity isn't helping them at all. Sometimes you have to get burned to learn a lesson. Sounds harsh but it's true. Personaly I think society already has to do far to much to protect people from their own stupidity. Now before everyone jumps all over me, this does not apply to ALL people but certainly a vast majority of the population. I've seen many people, myself very much included, make descions that they really should/could have know better of.

I understand what you are getting at but I don't think that is the right way to look at it as they are similar but do differ as well. These people seek out pyschics of their own free will, they know what they are all about. No one held a gun to these peoples head and told them "go see Sylvia"



Finnaly, with regards to that contest. As we can tell by this thread, we can't even be sure that pyschic abilities exist. I mean, we don't even fully understand how our brains work. How could we possibly put controls into place to test something we arent even sure exists?

In short, I am not questioning wether or not these abilities exist. I'm only questioning how any body can say for certain that they do or don't, that's all.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

In short, I am not questioning wether or not these abilities exist. I'm only questioning how any body can say for certain that they do or don't, that's all.

Well, if anyone is psychic, then I should be too. I'm not, so therefore no one else is either.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Faith does not mean the suspension of logic and reason... It takes just as much faith to believe in science as it does religion.

are you kidding me? the whole mantra of science is to rely solely on facts and tested observations....done through testing and retesting. the whole idea of faith is completely and purposefully taken out of the equation.

unless of course you need faith to believe crazy theories like "gravity"...

[photon]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Faith does not mean the suspension of logic and reason... It takes just as much faith to believe in science as it does religion.

If by as much you mean none at all.. Science is the antithesis of faith; it's based on observation, prediction, and measurement.

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I don't believe in "psychics", but I do believe that humans and other intelligent species, have a "6th sense". I believe that living beings are part of nature, and our minds are linked to nature through time and space. This sometimes gives people "psychic-like" abilities, such as knowing when something bad might happen to a loved one or one's self. There is so much we don't know about the natural environment, and our own brains for that matter.

I DO NOT believe in the type of psychic abilities that this woman claims to have though.

A lot of this sixth sense is already known of or being researched; our subconscious plays a much bigger role in our thoughts and actions than most people realize, and we notice and react to things at that level without it ever percolating into our conscious mind. Our subconscious sees patterns and alters our conscious decisions long before we are aware.

Of course we don't understand it all. We may never, it stands to reason that to fully understand a system of a given complexity you'd need a system with a higher level of complexity to understand it. So maybe AI will someday understand our brains.. they couldn't explain it to us though

As for a "paranormal" link, it may exist.. but as of yet there is no conclusive evidence (and not for the lack of trying).

[photon]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

I will agree with this. There has to be a line drawn between rediculous and plausible. But like other posters have suggested, there is much about the human mind that we don't know about, I honestly don't think it is outside the realm of possibility that there are people in the world that do have some form/level of "pyshcic" abilities. I don't really like to use that word though. Like others have said, more of a sixth sense.

See my previous post just above. I won't ever rule it out, but until someone can actually make a claim and demonstrate it, there's no reason to think it exists.

Ask a psychic to change their mind about what?

Sorry, I meant to say ask a psychic what would they need to change their mind about their abilities, or their understanding of the world, or whatever. Ask a psychic "what would it take to to prove to you you have no psychic abilities". It's a reasonable question.

See, this whole society thing bothers me. If people choose to believe what society and the media tells them, that's their own problem. It really is up to them what they do with the information they get through those two mediums (no pun intended). Protecting people from their own stupidity isn't helping them at all. Sometimes you have to get burned to learn a lesson. Sounds harsh but it's true. Personaly I think society already has to do far to much to protect people from their own stupidity. Now before everyone jumps all over me, this does not apply to ALL people but certainly a vast majority of the population. I've seen many people, myself very much included, make descions that they really should/could have know better of.

I understand what you are getting at but I don't think that is the right way to look at it as they are similar but do differ as well. These people seek out pyschics of their own free will, they know what they are all about. No one held a gun to these peoples head and told them "go see Sylvia"

I can definitely see your point and would tend to agree.. except that these people exploit flaws in the brain, a bug in the software if you will. It's like saying to someone "stop gambling" or "stop drinking" when they clearly can't. Our brains have evolved to be vulnerable to these kinds of things, and without education and understanding most people would be believers.

Finnaly, with regards to that contest. As we can tell by this thread, we can't even be sure that pyschic abilities exist. I mean, we don't even fully understand how our brains work. How could we possibly put controls into place to test something we arent even sure exists?

In short, I am not questioning wether or not these abilities exist. I'm only questioning how any body can say for certain that they do or don't, that's all.

And in that we agree, and even James Randi who does that challenge would agree; you can't say those things don't exist. I would say though that as our understanding of things grows the chances become less, and to this point no one has shown for certain that they do exist.

The test is quite simple though, it's not that controls need to be in place or anything, it's simply a matter of someone making a claim of what they can do with their psychic powers and testing that claim in an environment where they can't cheat. If they claim to be able to read cards in envelopes, that's very easy to test. If they claim to see auras, very simple.

That not a single one EVER has even come close is telling. And they have recorded accounts of many tests, some are amusing, many are quite sad. The water dowsers are my favorites though; their ability to rationalize is amazing and they never get discouraged.

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by photon

The water dowsers are my favorites though; their ability to rationalize is amazing and they never get discouraged.

I've heard lots of people say how ridiculous water dowsers are, but I don't know what these people claim to do. What is a water dowser?

[photon]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I've heard lots of people say how ridiculous water dowsers are, but I don't know what these people claim to do. What is a water dowser?

They claim to be able to find water, gold, metals, all kinds of things simply with some simple device (either a Y shaped stick or two L shaped wires). They walk around an area and tell where to drill or where to dig and stuff.

But of course it doesn't work. They've done tons of tests. One where they out many containers in a field, some with water in them some without. The dowsers first do a clean sweep of the field to verify there's no interference. Then they do a test where they can clearly see the water filled containers to verify their abilities are working. They then do the blind test which they of course fail. Then they blame sunspots (for real!), underground rivers, magnetic fields in the test water, and anything else for their failure.

They did another one where they ran pipes underground and then covered them with dirt. They ran water through a random pipe to see if they could detect it, with similar results.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...12885649996034

[Burninator]

Originally Posted by Teh_Bandwagoner

Not necessarily. Isn't null hypothesis a common statistical test that is the exact opposite? Where you assume something to be true, and you keep testing it until it's either proven false, or falls within an probability that is statistically true?

I wouldn't call a null hypothesis common. From what I read on it, it sounds pretty controversial and not very accepted. I don't know if a null hypothesis would work in this situation. I would call paranormal things like pshyics, post hoc.

is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs.

Post Hoc

[TheDragon]

People want answers when they don't get them from anybody else, I suppose. If the Police, or the salvage crew, or who ever else can't give her one, it's only human to keep searching until you find one.

I'll admit I use to watch Sylvia Browne (this said psychic) on Montel every once and while when I was sick. She's dropped the ball a few times, but she's also answered and predicted things that became and were fact, too - in her defense, anyway. Don't jump down my throat about that, though. I'm just sayin'.

Still, though... ouch.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Faith does not mean the suspension of logic and reason... It takes just as much faith to believe in science as it does religion.

Actually, faith does mean the suspension of logic and reason. It is the belief that is not founded in logical proof or empirical data. Science is knowledge based on observation and empirical data derived from the testing of hypothesis through methodical experimentation.

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Can you say, without doubt, without question, 100% certain, that those types of abilities do not exist?

Nope, but anyone with those abilities aren't sitting on Montel talking about it that's for sure.

[Teh_Bandwagoner]

Originally Posted by Burninator

I wouldn't call a null hypothesis common. From what I read on it, it sounds pretty controversial and not very accepted. I don't know if a null hypothesis would work in this situation. I would call paranormal things like pshyics, post hoc.

Oh I agree with you that it's not quite valid for a situation such as this. But I found the statement on how "Science works" a little too general is all.