Vancouver's safe injection site successful: study

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

No time to read through your left wing help my addiction crap

But, clearly whatever your doing in that hell hole isn't working. So you scuff at my remarks, but since it hasn't been tryed: #1 you can't say it wouldn't work. #2 you can't sit here and say the current strategy is working - because it isn't.

Kay Thanks.

Actually when it comes to drugs I am very right wing. Just stay the **** out of peoples lives. If people want to do drugs it's not the governments place to interfere. At the far right is the belief of government not interfereing with people's lives.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

What are you talking about.

It helps them get high, cleaner way or not. It helps them get high. WTF? It dosen't rehabilitate them in any way, people come and go, all to get high. Nobody comes there to sober up and your a fool to think so.

Ever been there? Nope. They have services intent on helping people clean up and it's not surprising how many of them take a flier out on that. You should try going there before you make these types of comments.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

As for stats, give me some stats, some links. Instead of posting nonesense.

Which stats would you like? The burden of proof is on you. I have doctors in an article at the beginning of this thread backing my position. It won't take me long to find where they are getting their information from and then shove it down your mis-informed throat. However as of right now you need to back up the ****e you're spewing.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Jail can rehabilitate, the first step to quitting your habit is to go sober, and the best way to go sober is to withdraw yourself from society, not head on down to the local shoot up center.

Jail can rehabilitate those who are not mentally ****ed. You can't rehabilitate a schizophrenic or a psychopathe. It cannot rehabiliate someone who is addicted to something, it could kill them by forcing them through withdrawals though. This 'local shoot-up center' offers them not only a safe place to get a fix that they require to function but aswell as ways to not require the fix.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

And that "endless cycle" stops if your withdrawn from the drug for an extended period of time.

No it doesn't. They are down on their luck. No where to live, rough life nothing to really turn too. They do the drug as an escape. They get caught. They go to jail. They are released from jail. They have no where to live an even rougher life and even less to turn too. They do the drug to escape.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Thats science my friend, thats how the body works. Thats how you quit drugs, quit smoking, quit drinking. You have to stop doing it. Not keep doing it in a controlled enviroment???!!

No, you quit addictive drugs by receiving treatment by any means necessary, and in some cases that DOES require doing the drugs in smaller amounts, just like most people quit tobacco. Just stopping results in withdrawls.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Clearly you know nothing about prison. You just have this view thats it's so negative.

When in jail, you have so many oppertunities to learn, gain education and valuable life skills - stuff you don't learn while getting high as that center.

You've obviously never been to prison. Very few of them actually take to the programs the prisons have set up, let-alone actually learn anything. Talk to my half-brother about how good prisons are. While you're there you can ask him why he started doing heroin again after getting out of jail.

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Prison teaches you responsibility and many other aspects in order to live a life on the outside, getting high at that center dosen't.

Not much you can learn when your **** faced on Heroin.

Mr. Scientist.

Your arguement is laughable for two reasons.

1. You've never been too either jail or the SIS.
2. It relies on stuff you've heard and no real facts.

I have seen and been in the SIS. I know people who have spent periods of time in BC Jails for drug abuse. Guess which one helped my friend clean up . The SIS. Jail does nothing but continue you a cycle.

The burden of proof is on you, until you give actual facts other than pure conjecture and something "you read": QED, Bitch

[FLAMESBURNOIL]

i didnt realize it was safe to inject that stuff - what will those lefties think of next

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It's becoming more and more clear all the time that the whole "War on Drugs" has been phenomenally successful, so I agree with you -- we should just keep doing the same things. Lock up those drug addicts -- they'll get clean in prison. I mean whoever heard of drugs in prison?

Your talking as if this has been the strategy of choice - it hasn't.

Vancouvers stance has been the complete opposite the last several decades and it has got that city and that problem no where.

Originally Posted by Hakan

Do you think they chose that life? Do you think they really want to be drug addicts? No. Clearly there are issues of addiction affecting them. Clearly you have never been addicted to anything before so you really can't storm in on your high horse and start prescribing solutions that are completely devoid of the reality that these people live in.

They did chose that life, they chose to use Heroin or crack or any other drugs, knowing too well of the fact these substances ruin your life and addiction can take hold. So in a way, they did choose that. Now i know, as you have said, as many others have, different circumstances play into people using these drugs, but the fact of the matter is, we are educated on the dangers and if you decide to go down that road reguardless, it's your own fault.

And..

As a matter of fact, i spent 5 years of my life addicted to crack/cocaine and it was a real eye opener. Through my strength and the help of my family, i got through. I realized i didn't want to die, i realized i wanted to see the world and wanted to experiance so many things - this is what got me out of that hole.

In my 25 years on this planet, i've had good friends put in jail over drugs, many of them - not all - to come out changed men. Jail is what they truley needed, time away from the negative people they hung around, time away from their addiction. Time to reflect on what has happened - as when your addicted the only real thing you think about is your next fix so you don't make too many logical decisions. I have a friend who is serving 24 years for attempted murder, all because drugs got the better of him and he made a poor choice to stab a drug dealer for his crack and $300 in cash.

Don't talk to me about what i've witnessed and what i haven't. I blame myself 100% for what i put my family and friends through, because it was my choice to use. Whatever happened after is irrelivant, because i chose that lifestyle knowing too well of the dangers associated with it.

Originally Posted by Hakan

Just quit doing heroin? Good idea. Why haven't I, they, or anythign else involved with drug policy thought of that? Wow, it's so simple! Great idea.

I never said it was simple, but heading on down to a place to shoot more drugs is not helping. These people need to isolate themselfs from all of these criminals and dealers. They need a time out and time away from the drug.

You can't sit here and say, if your body is withdrawl for a longer period of time from a drug, you become less dependant, because thats science. I didn't make it up to support my argument, thats how our bodys work. Thats how smokers quit, thats how Alcoholics quit and that my friend, is how drug addicts can quit.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Hey look! Living in Vancouver does serve a purpose on this board! Incoming logical bombardment!

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Jeez, why don't you show some respect to other posters?

Kay Thanks.

I show the same respect he showed me.

If he wants to pull some sarcasm in the first sentance of his post, making me out to be an idiot, instead of putting forth his views in a positive manner, i will show him the respect he deserves.

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Where's all YOUR proof, stats and links instead of posting nonsense like "addiction is not an illness"?

Where is the proof the DTES has gotten any better in the last 2 decades of all these "experiments"

I'll agree, the safe injection site has decreased the amount of HIV infections but it certainly hasn't helped a good portion addiction wise. I'm not sitting here denying it has been a 100% failure, but if this program is only helping a handfull of people, while providing a nice clean and warm enviroment for the rest of these individuals to simply get high - it's a failure in my eyes.

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Clearly, if you call Vancouver a hell-hole, you have never been there. I fail to understand how someone can call a place between the mountains and the ocean a hell-hole.

Oh i've been there.

When referring to "Hell hole" i was directing that to the DTES, not Vancouver in general.

Originally Posted by Blaster86

1. You've never been too either jail or

Oh really? You have got to be the worlds greatest psychic - don't quit your day job.

[jolinar of malkshor]

A co-worker of mine had just come back from Vancouver. He had never been there before and he was completely astonished at the amount of homeless, crackaddicts and overall slime in the DTES. It can be a very sad place. If the Justice system actually worked.....the police would go down there and arrest every single one in possession of crack/herioin/meth and put them in jail for a few years. Get them clean and give them the tools to be a productive member of society.

I think the safe sites are better than nothing....but we should be using the system we have in place to punish and rehabilitate these people.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

A co-worker of mine had just come back from Vancouver. He had never been there before and he was completely astonished at the amount of homeless, crackaddicts and overall slime in the DTES. It can be a very sad place. If the Justice system actually worked.....the police would go down there and arrest every single one in possession of crack/herioin/meth and put them in jail for a few years. Get them clean and give them the tools to be a productive member of society.

Aren't there lots of drugs in prison? How does sending someone to jail get them clean?

I think the safe sites are better than nothing....but we should be using the system we have in place to punish and rehabilitate these people.

I'm not so sure the prison system is that great at rehabilitation. Didn't Pavlov prove positive reinforcement was way more effective than negative reinforcement? Its surprising how 'punishing' someone is an incredibly ineffective way of getting them to change their ways/minds... I think in the end they just resent you for punishing them, they don't appreciate you for incarcerating them.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Aren't there lots of drugs in prison? How does sending someone to jail get them clean?


I'm not so sure the prison system is that great at rehabilitation. Didn't Pavlov prove positive reinforcement was way more effective than negative reinforcement? Its surprising how 'punishing' someone is an incredibly ineffective way of getting them to change their ways/minds... I think in the end they just resent you for punishing them, they don't appreciate you for incarcerating them.

There are drugs in prison....but not a lot. Most of it is home brew.

[Agamemnon]

From the Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy;

Drugs in Prison: There is extensive drug use and drug dealing in prison. In 1995, a survey of 4,285 federal inmates found that 40% used drugs since arriving in prison. This occurs because the climate of prohibition allows an economy that generates high income and guards and other staff can be offered high pay for assistance. The result is an economy that is almost perfect for the prison environment, especially since many of the participants have been involved in dealing before entering the institution.

And from the Public Health Agency of Canada;

Prison Populations

Canadians incarcerated in prison have relatively high rates of HCV and other blood-borne infections and IDU is the predominant risk factor underlying their higher risk (Jürgens, 1996). A significant portion of the prison population consists of people who currently inject drugs or did so in the past. The presence of IDU and the sharing of needles in prisons increases the spread of HCV among inmates as well as the community at large upon their release.

Studies conducted in Canadian prisons have found HCV prevalence rates between 28% and 40% (Canadian HIV/Legal Network, 1999). The most recent study of federal prison inmates (Lior et al., 1998) found 48% of inmates in the federal prison at Springhill, Nova Scotia to be users of injection drugs, of which 52% were HCV positive. Furthermore, 39% of users continued to inject drugs in prison and the majority (82%) reported sharing needles when injecting drugs.

In another study, 39 long-term inmates (20 males and 19 females) were randomly selected from two federal institutions and invited to participate in a survey examining risk-taking behaviors (Calzavara et al., 1997). The participation rate was 82%. Inside prison, 56% used any drugs during the past 12 months, 28% injected drugs inside prison in the past 10 years, and 5% injected drugs during the past 12 months of their current incarceration. Needle-sharing was more prevalent inside prison than it was outside. Just under one-quarter (21%) reported infection with hepatitis C.

Research in this area reinforces the need for appropriate services to prevent HCV transmission within the prison walls as well as the community at large. Drugs are readily available in most prisons and those who inject drugs are at high-risk for infection because of the lack of access to harm reduction resources (Marte and Gatell, 1999).

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

From the Canadian Foundation for Drug Policy;

Drugs in Prison: There is extensive drug use and drug dealing in prison. In 1995, a survey of 4,285 federal inmates found that 40% used drugs since arriving in prison. This occurs because the climate of prohibition allows an economy that generates high income and guards and other staff can be offered high pay for assistance. The result is an economy that is almost perfect for the prison environment, especially since many of the participants have been involved in dealing before entering the institution.

And from the Public Health Agency of Canada;

Prison Populations

Canadians incarcerated in prison have relatively high rates of HCV and other blood-borne infections and IDU is the predominant risk factor underlying their higher risk (Jürgens, 1996). A significant portion of the prison population consists of people who currently inject drugs or did so in the past. The presence of IDU and the sharing of needles in prisons increases the spread of HCV among inmates as well as the community at large upon their release.

Studies conducted in Canadian prisons have found HCV prevalence rates between 28% and 40% (Canadian HIV/Legal Network, 1999). The most recent study of federal prison inmates (Lior et al., 1998) found 48% of inmates in the federal prison at Springhill, Nova Scotia to be users of injection drugs, of which 52% were HCV positive. Furthermore, 39% of users continued to inject drugs in prison and the majority (82%) reported sharing needles when injecting drugs.

In another study, 39 long-term inmates (20 males and 19 females) were randomly selected from two federal institutions and invited to participate in a survey examining risk-taking behaviors (Calzavara et al., 1997). The participation rate was 82%. Inside prison, 56% used any drugs during the past 12 months, 28% injected drugs inside prison in the past 10 years, and 5% injected drugs during the past 12 months of their current incarceration. Needle-sharing was more prevalent inside prison than it was outside. Just under one-quarter (21%) reported infection with hepatitis C.

Research in this area reinforces the need for appropriate services to prevent HCV transmission within the prison walls as well as the community at large. Drugs are readily available in most prisons and those who inject drugs are at high-risk for infection because of the lack of access to harm reduction resources (Marte and Gatell, 1999).

Yes...I know all this and I do appreciate you obtaining this info....however....like I said before....drugs are in prisons.....these studies only show that inmates use drugs....but it is not on a continued basis like out on the street. And they do need to crack down on drug use in prisons....even if that means keeping inmates segragated.

[Blaster86]

Originally Posted by eazyduzzit

Oh really? You have got to be the worlds greatest psychic - don't quit your day job.

Then please, tell me about your experience in jail. If you have been in jail this is the right time to explain the experience, otherwise you still have NOTHING to base your comments on.

I'll reply to the rest of the post when I get home from work.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Yes...I know all this and I do appreciate you obtaining this info....however....like I said before....drugs are in prisons.....these studies only show that inmates use drugs....but it is not on a continued basis like out on the street. And they do need to crack down on drug use in prisons....even if that means keeping inmates segragated.

Right... but do you think prisons currently have a super-tolerant drug policy? I don't think they're overtly allowing prisoners to engage in drug use, prisons probably see drug use/trafficking as a top priority to eliminate. It happens anyway.

Besides, all I was suggesting is that prisons don't 'clean up' drug-addicted people. You can't just send them to prison and expect their drug habit to be dealt with any better than, say, a safe injection site could.

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

There are drugs in prison....but not a lot. Most of it is home brew.

Clearly there are a LOT of drugs in prison. I'm no expert, but I'm not sure how many injection-drugs you can home-brew.

[eazyduzzit]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Then please, tell me about your experience in jail. If you have been in jail this is the right time to explain the experience, otherwise you still have NOTHING to base your comments on.

I'll reply to the rest of the post when I get home from work.

Nothing over 6+ months.

Just for petty little things, but how this is at all relavant to this debate i do not know. What i have experiance with is people a know in the prison system currently, as well as having people i know in the past spend time in jail. As well as living the past 2 decades watching the DTES go from bad to worse. I say no more.

My comments are based on personal experiences, you haven't provided ANYTHING either, so i don't know where your going with this.

Don't bother replying to the rest of it, i pay no attention to you or your sarcastic disrespectful antics - you will just waste your time.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Right... but do you think prisons currently have a super-tolerant drug policy? I don't think they're overtly allowing prisoners to engage in drug use, prisons probably see drug use/trafficking as a top priority to eliminate. It happens anyway.

Besides, all I was suggesting is that prisons don't 'clean up' drug-addicted people. You can't just send them to prison and expect their drug habit to be dealt with any better than, say, a safe injection site could.


Clearly there are a LOT of drugs in prison. I'm no expert, but I'm not sure how many injection-drugs you can home-brew.

A LOT? From your own stats. 28% injected drugs inside prison in the past 10 years, and 5% injected drugs during the past 12 months of their current incarceration.

There are no numbers involved in these stats so we do not know. 28% in 10 years? Doesn't sound like habitual use is going on in the jails. 5% in the last 12 months. That could have been 1 shot of drugs and shared by a group of people.

Drug use in prisons go down as the level of security goes up. I can gaurantee you that there is a MUCH lower rate of drug use in High security pens than low security. That alone can alter the numbers.

[Agamemnon]

I guess there are different #'s for different things. From the material I posted,

The most recent study of federal prison inmates (Lior et al., 1998) found 48% of inmates in the federal prison at Springhill, Nova Scotia to be users of injection drugs, of which 52% were HCV positive. Furthermore, 39% of users continued to inject drugs in prison and the majority (82%) reported sharing needles when injecting drugs.

All these figures sound pretty high. I'm not here crusading about how much/little drug use there is in prison, just that prison is not an ideal place to go to 'clean up'. There are drugs readily available in prison, if you want to keep using, you can.

Also, security guards are probably the #1 way drugs get into a prison, so just adding dozens more guards (probably at not great pay) may not have the desired effect of reducing drug trafficking, since they at times facilitate the trafficking.

[Agamemnon]

Some more stats:

http://www.ccsa.ca/pdf/ccsa-011058-2004.pdf


What proportion of the prison population has a substance abuse problem?

The majority of offenders show evidence some kind of substance abuse problem. Canadian national

prevalence data indicate that at least 7 of 10 offenders in the federal correctional system have engaged

in problematic use of alcohol and other drugs during the one-year period prior to their incarceration.

In Canada, about 51% of prisoners housed in federal correctional institutions have an alcohol problem.

About 48% of Canadian federal prisoners experience problems with drugs (other than alcohol).
In Saskatchewan, up to 93% of provincial offenders are identified as having a substance abuse problem.
A study of women offenders in Prince Albert, Saskatchewan revealed that 75% had been or were still injection drug users (IDUsv).

Substance use is a major factor in contributing to the re-admission of offenders back into custody following release. Canadian studies have demonstrated that as many as 70% of offender release suspensions involve alcohol and other drugs.

To what extent are alcoholand other drugs available in prison?

Prisons house the highest per-capita proportion of persons with substance abuse problems in society.
Drugs are available in prison. Studies examining rates of substance use indicate that the per capita

use of drugs in Canada’s prisons is substantially higher than on the street. In addition, drug trade is also much more violent in prison than it is on the street. Indeed, alcohol and other drugs are available to some extent in virtually every correctional jurisdiction in the world. An interview study of 317 federal prisoners in Quebec revealed that 33% had used alcohol or other drugs at least once during the preceding three months. In addition, it is unlikely that even the best efforts of prison staff and officials can completely eliminate alcohol and other drugs from prison. Indeed, the notion of a “drug-free” prison has been acknowledged by some prison systems as “unrealistic.”36 In large measure, it appears that this conclusion has been reached based on attempts to balance security concerns with human rights.

How serious a problem is injection drug use and needle-sharing in prison?

Given the large proportion of prisoners with substance abuse problems (many of whom engage in injection drug use), there is serious concern regarding the spread of infectious diseases such as hepatitis C and HIV/AIDS.
The HIV/AIDS infection rate of prisoners in the Canadian federal correctional system (1.7%) is more than 10 times higher than in the general population (0.13%). Rates of HIV/AIDS infection are particularly high among female federal prisoners (8% in the Prairie region).
Rates of hepatitis C infection among Canadian federal prisoners are even higher than those for HIV/AIDS with the overall prevalence rate (23.6%) more than 20 times higher than in the general population of Canada. Once again, overall rates of hepatitis C infection are much higher for female prisoners (41.2%) than for male prisoners (23.2%).
In Canada, approximately 18.3% of offenders reported injecting drugs before coming to prison. Of these, 54.6% injected during the six months before incarceration. A 1995 survey of inmates in federal custody found that 11% disclosed that they had injected drugs since coming to prison.
41% of these individuals indicated that the injection equipment was not clean or that they did not know whether it was clean.
A survey conducted in 1998 at Joyceville Institutionx found that 24% of respondents reported using intravenous drugs in prison (25% of whom reported that they started injecting drugs after coming to prison).

All I'm saying is that if I wanted to or wanted someone else to get off of injection drugs, sending me/them to prison does not seem like an ideal treatment method. Clearly drugs do exist in prison, and if you want them you can get them.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Thanks for proving my point. They lumped alcohol into the study and the fact that 70% of inmates have substance abuse problems but only 5% had used injection drugs in the last 12 months.....so you basically proved what I was talking about......and i didn't have to do any work.....we should do this more often.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Thanks for proving my point. They lumped alcohol into the study and the fact that 70% of inmates have substance abuse problems but only 5% had used injection drugs in the last 12 months.....so you basically proved what I was talking about......and i didn't have to do any work.....we should do this more often.

did you read this line?
"About 48% of Canadian federal prisoners experience problems with drugs (other than alcohol)."

[Agamemnon]

A survey conducted in 1998 at Joyceville Institutionx found that 24% of respondents reported using intravenous drugs in prison (25% of whom reported that they started injecting drugs after coming to prison).

24% is a lot...

In Canada, approximately 18.3% of offenders reported injecting drugs before coming to prison. Of these, 54.6% injected during the six months before incarceration. A 1995 survey of inmates in federal custody found that 11% disclosed that they had injected drugs since coming to prison.

This says that of the intravenous drug users sent to prison, half continued use within the first six months. 11% of total inmates injected since coming to prison... maybe we disagree on what 'a lot' of intravenous drug use constitutes. I think 11% is a lot. If 11% of Calgary was doing intravenous drugs that would be what... 115,000 people?

About 48% of Canadian federal prisoners experience problems with drugs (other than alcohol).

48% is a lot... intravenous or not, DRUGS are available in PRISON on a huge scale, moreso than, say, a highschool or university.

My contention was that if the goal is to get people off drugs, prison is a bad place to put them. I think you're contending otherwise, but you're not really putting any effort into the debate.

i didn't have to do any work.....we should do this more often.

I can also do without the dink attitude... I'm just trying to talk about an issue here, no need to start the descent here.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I can also do without the dink attitude... I'm just trying to talk about an issue here, no need to start the descent here.

Sorry...not trying to be a dink, I just think your numbers are all over the place and really doesn't tell a whole lot of what is actualy being used in prison and how often. Again I do appreciate you obtaining these stats...and like you say....a lot more than what I have contributated......only because I don't have the motivation right now to go looking for numbers.

Your stat on 48% simply says they have problems with drugs....not that 48% are using drugs in prison.

[Winsor_Pilates]

How can any conservative support throwing them in prison anyway?

It's very amusing that the people usually saying "I don't want my tax dollars going toward helping junkies" are the same people who say "throw them in jail"

Do you not realise how much it costs to keep people in jail?

These alternative responses to treating drug problems are far, far cheaper then putting people in jail. And for once, they may actually work...

I fail to see any down side in using these sites

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Sorry...not trying to be a dink, I just think your numbers are all over the place and really doesn't tell a whole lot of what is actualy being used in prison and how often. Again I do appreciate you obtaining these stats...and like you say....a lot more than what I have contributated......only because I don't have the motivation right now to go looking for numbers.

Your stat on 48% simply says they have problems with drugs....not that 48% are using drugs in prison.

All the stats have to say is that drugs are available in prison. That's it. So if a junkie gets thrown in the slammer and he still wants to use and drugs are available in prison...

The strategy of just tossing them in there and they'll clean themselves up clearly does not work.

Hell, I bet there are some people that become drug addicts in prison.