Bad Behaviour Bylaw

[algernon]

As a carpenter, I physicaly exert my self and lungs for the large part of the day. I find that I (and co-workers) am/are spitting through out the day. An uncle of mine thinks that this is normal with physical activity. When I'm out on the town, I don't have the need to spit as much. When I do, I'm conscious of depositing the phlegm into the soil of a planter or in the gutter, out of sight, out of mind.

I think it would be detrimental to the growing heath problem of obeisety, to start fineing joggers for clearing out their lungs while exercising, unless they are the pigs doing it on the sidewalk/windows/signs/bus shelters/ news paper boxes, etc.

*the above is just my opinion*

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Doesn't have to say it... its very clearly a public safety law. I've seen it referred to as such by police and lawyers.

It's not a public safety law...it's a public disturbance law. All it takes is the interuption of enjoyable usage of a public space....does not have to be threatening at all.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

It's not a public safety law...it's a public disturbance law. All it takes is the interuption of enjoyable usage of a public space....does not have to be threatening at all.

Part of feeling safe is not feeling disturbed or threatened. The spirit of this law is not to prevent such things as rallies, protests, celebrations, parades, etc. (things that under the letter of that law would be illegal), but rather to prevent these things from causing people to feel uncomfortable and unsafe.(for example, drunken and disorderly conduct, verbal assault, molestation, indecent exposure, violent protests or anything considered to be a detriment to public safety and order).

[Footscray]

The rest is pretty reasonable but swearing is not something they have any right to legislate, the actual negative impact of swears is really not even debatable from a logical point of view. The rest of it I really couldn't care less about - spitting seems kind of anal too but I can deal with not witnessing it in public.

[Barnes]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Part of feeling safe is not feeling disturbed or threatened. The spirit of this law is not to prevent such things as rallies, protests, celebrations, parades, etc. (things that under the letter of that law would be illegal), but rather to prevent these things from causing people to feel uncomfortable and unsafe.(for example, drunken and disorderly conduct, verbal assault, molestation, indecent exposure, violent protests or anything considered to be a detriment to public safety and order).

All of which were illegal before today.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Footscray

spitting seems kind of anal

I believe anal spitting is also covered under this bylaw, although, you might want to see a doctor about it.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Thunderball

Part of feeling safe is not feeling disturbed or threatened. The spirit of this law is not to prevent such things as rallies, protests, celebrations, parades, etc. (things that under the letter of that law would be illegal), but rather to prevent these things from causing people to feel uncomfortable and unsafe.(for example, drunken and disorderly conduct, verbal assault, molestation, indecent exposure, violent protests or anything considered to be a detriment to public safety and order).

Yes I see where you are coming from...and I am aware of that. However, there is no requirement of having to feel threatened to be charged and convicted of this law.

Somebody swearing infront of a restaurant patio and disturbing the patrons peace is enough to be charged. The patrons DO NOT need to feel threatened at all.

Students in schools have been convicted of causing a disturbance for addressing teachers loudly and insultingly or using obscene language in their presence. Parents can also be guilty of committing this offence in schools and can be charged as well. Evidence of a disturbance can be as simple as the distraction of students or others from their work. Uttering threats is covered by section 264.1 of the Criminal Code

http://www.unb.ca/education/bezeau/eact/eact14.html

Speaking normally through an electronic megaphone can constitute causing a disturbance: R. v. Reed (1992), 76 C.C.C. (3d) 204 (B.C.C.A.).

The British Columbia Court of Appeal charted a path between these two approaches in R. v. Peters (1982), 65 C.C.C. (2d) 83. A secondary disturbance was not always required; the act of shouting or swearing or singing itself could constitute the disturbance. At the same time, shouting obscenities in a loud voice at two police officers was held, in this particular case, not to amount to a disturbance `in and of itself'. Therefore, one or more persons must be "affected" by the conduct for there to be a disturbance within the section (p. 91). Taggart J.A. for the court quoted with approval the reasoning Verchere J. had earlier used (R. v. Wolgram (1975), 29 C.C.C. (2d) 536 (B.C.S.C.), at p. 537)

Swinimer, supra, Parliament chose to speak of a disturbance in or near a public place, not in someone's mind. By addressing "disturbance" in the public context, Parliament signalled that its objective was not the protection of individuals from emotional upset, but the protection of the public from disorder calculated to interfere with the public's normal activities.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Do you cruise around wearing a pfd? Head out to supper at Red Lobster with the fam sportin' a blue and red Buoy o' Buoy?

Seriously though.

Dear City,

Homeless people don't have money to pay tickets.

Signed,
Citizens wishing you would stop wasting time with stupid rules.

PS.
Giving transit cops (all 4 of them) the ability to enforce the law on 7th ave is a good idea.

Failing to pay the fine could mean that they sit in jail and pay the fine that way.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Failing to pay the fine could mean that they sit in jail and pay the fine that way.

Will that actually happen though? I'm no expert but I would imagine it's kind of hard to keep track of people who don't have an address or a telephone.

I hate to sound like a conservative, but it would cost a fortune to put those guys in the slammer for not paying a spitting ticket. Never mind the other reasons.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by getbak

I believe anal spitting is also covered under this bylaw, although, you might want to see a doctor about it.

or lay off the 3-d doritos

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Will that actually happen though? I'm no expert but I would imagine it's kind of hard to keep track of people who don't have an address or a telephone.

I hate to sound like a conservative, but it would cost a fortune to put those guys in the slammer for not paying a spitting ticket. Never mind the other reasons.

I agree. All I am saying is...if they get a ticket and don't pay. A warrant would be issued. If they get in trouble with the police, they would be arrested and probably held on a form 21. Meaning they either pay the fine or spend time in jail in leu of the fine. I know they use to give $5 credit for ever hour in jail. That might have gone up now...not sure.

[Daradon]

Am I completely blind, I don't see the part in the article about swearing? It's in the bolder header, sensationalism not new for The Sun, but mention of swearing is not in the article.

I saw the same report in The Herald, no mention of swearing.

Hmmmmm...

What really gets me though, swearing or no, is not this current city administrations need to legislate behaviour while they let the opportunity for growth and legacy slip us by. Nation and province be damned, we're swimming in dollars, yet we can't build more C-train stations and make more parks, or support our orchastra? And we're rasing taxes and user fees every year.

Spend the money on infrastructure, not investment. If you don't have it, lobby harder, we're earning it. Too much of this province's wealth is getting spread around. Get some politicians and business people on our side. The three cities contributing the most to this boom (not just the provnces but the country's are:

Ft. McMurray (a government embarassment, the majority of our labour comes out of here for the sands. Build the workers some homes and a decent city)

Calgary We have the largest influx of people (96 a day according to the last report!) and a recent infux of poor because of this boom. We were the fastest growing city in Canada 10 years ago, and now dwarf every other city proportionally and almost outright (second to Toronto barely) now. Figure it out. Desperately need more money. From the province, from the nation. We're paying it in taxes and equalization anyway and it's all going east.

Edmonton. (I know I know) Not at the same level of desperation as Calgary, but growing quickly. Probably also privy to proportionally a few more funds because of the fact they are the capital, but also need more funds. Lots of blue collar workers here that have worked for this boom.

Maybe get an alliance of mayors ad send them to Edmonton and Ottawa. Special time and circumstance take special measures. I dunno, but we're not getting the full value of this boom and we're dragging a bunch of people (newly in the city and out of it) who want to come along for the ride.

It's not selfish. It's reality. I'm all for sharing and for making a better life for others. I'm all for expanding social programs and with more money we can do that. But the reality is, a lot of people who want to be a part of it, don't want to work for it. Wealth, even supposed, attracts such people, some come to he city, and others take from it from others. And we're seeing that now, especially in Calgary where the homeless have flocked, so many of them able, but not willing.

Again, I know about disability and circumstance personally. But every time I see someone healthy enough to walk between rows of fast moving cars and bang on my window for money I wonder why aren't they working, especially when every service industry we have is asking for workers at 9-12 an hour and especially when we have a new homeless shelter and other programs not being taken advantage of.

Those in TRUE need should be taken care, even better than they are now, but those that leech, should be treated as such.

Similarly, why are Ottawa politicains reaping the benefits of our boom and ultimately our hard work. Yes times are good now, but weren't always so. the only thing that saved Calgary from the outright depression was the 88 olympics and the annual Stampede. Both traditions we worked hard for. More over this city has always had he entreprenureal spirit and the go get em attitude that has created booms like this. Yes we should help, but lets making sure it's going to the programs and people in need. Not supporting politicains too lazy to figure out the books for their own province (which we painfully did and are still fixing!) and not people squandering it when they don't need it.

Too many workers in Ft. Mac, Edmonton, and Calgary just working for that chance, while to many here and in other provinces just wasting it away.

Again, I'm not saying don't share, but let's share with those workers first.

As far as the city goes. let's see some improvements. We don't need to build the eight wonder of the world like Dubai, but lets make some extra train legs east and west, and more stations all around. Lets create more parks and support our orchastra and arts. Let's continue to beautify downtown.

Put the money there at least. Going back to the original topic...

Swearing, spitting, urinating? WTF???!!!

Stop giving us useless fines, until you give us a city that our work and boom deserves.

End rant.
Tyler

[Robbob]

It a stupid cash grab. All these things mentioned are already covered by the criminal code. Does Canada have a double jeopardy law? I wonder if someone was ticketed and arrested for fighting and paid the ticket and then as a defense said that that matter already been dealt with or vice versa, don't pay the fine because you were charged with the crime.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Am I the only one totally grossed out when you walk down the sidewalk, and you have to dodge huge green loogies? I want to barf... its even nastier when you see the culprit doing it...

No, you're not the only one. I think spitting on the sidewalk is totally disgusting. Spitting on the street is fine. Of course, those who tend to spit on the sidewalk are of the same breed who see nothing wrong with putting their feet up on C train seats while wearing wet snow boots.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by Barnes

Do you cruise around wearing a pfd? Head out to supper at Red Lobster with the fam sportin' a blue and red Buoy o' Buoy?

No, but I do wear it when I'm paddling...which many people do inside the city limits. I don't expect that to be enforced...it just caught my eye.

Besides - nobody's ridiculous enough to go to Red Lobster in a blue and red Buoy o' Buoy...mines a blue and black Serratus.

[Superfraggle]

Originally Posted by looooob

Under the bylaw, which will come into effect if approved next Monday, fines would range from $50 for carrying a visible knife or standing on public benches or sculptures to $300 for urinating or defecating in public

am I the only one that doesn't really view brandishing a knife in public and standing on a park bench to be equivalent offences?

It says "carrying a visible knife", not "brandishing a knife". I assume "brandishing a knife" would fall under a different law covering threats with a deadly weapon.

[flamesfanforver]

Originally Posted by The Goon

Fortunately, they don't mention masturbating in public. I'm safe!

So is Borat!!!!!

[Philly06Cup]

Not sure if it's related, but I saw LOTS of cops along downtown both yesterday and today. I'd reckon they were giving a lot of warning out to people.

I doubt these rules will be strictly enforced. They're made more to cover bases, and "go after the homeless." If you say one puny swear word, spit into the gutter, take a leak after a Flames game in the bushes, or just bought a knife from The Knifery, I'd imagine a warning would come your way.
But belligerent folk who are incessantly swearing and spitting - I'd like to see them get ticketed.

As long as discretion is used, I don't mind these new laws.

[soulchoice]

Wow, just another example of the morons we have in city hall. Bad behaviour bylaw? Soon enough this city will be like living in North Korea. Where do we draw the line? Whats next? I wouldnt be surprised if one of our useless Aldermen, Madeline King wants to allow ticketing of women whom wear revealing clothing, since in her deficient mind it may offend the public.

I guess the city can now have a new police division, the PP. I can already hear it now on the cb radio, Attention, Poop Patrol, we have a 344 in the bushes of Stanley Park, please respond, after your done writing your required daily ticket quota!