Total Cost Lebanon Evacuation - 31mil.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I know, and I try to read your sources, why I was kind of surprised by your post.

i'm just drunk.

in the past i've found some interesting stuff on israel.com but the site changed, the content isn't the same and my old links don't work.

but from the old israel.com i did find aish.com, which i've used on this forum in the past.

http://www.aish.com/aishint/about-us.asp

Since its launch in February 2000, Aish.com has become the world’s largest Jewish content website, logging over 3 million monthly user sessions with 200,000 unique email subscribers.

the content in question, quoting Ginsberg from his 1897 book "The Jewish State and the Jewish":

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishh...rn_Zionism.asp

"This Jewish settlement, which will be a gradual growth, will become in course of time the center of the nation, wherein its spirit will find pure expression and develop in all its aspects to the highest degree of perfection of which it is capable. Then, from this center the spirit of Judaism will radiate to the great circumference, to all the communities of the Diaspora, to inspire them with new life and to preserve the over-all unity of our people. When our national culture in Palestine has attained that level, we may be confident that it will produce men in the Land of itself who will be able, at a favorable moment, to establish a State there -- one which will be not merely a State of Jews but really a Jewish State."

it's important to realize that the zionist movement was not aboot peace with the arabs, it was aboot colonization.

i'm not here to say that there shouldn't be a little piece of the mideast set aside, i mean israel only constitutes one TENTH of 1% of the arab lands.

but the manner in which it was created cased a lot of friction and most people simply aren't aware that this open wound has never been allowed to heal.

arab leaders can always point to israel as the cause of their problems, and the constantly aggressive nature of the early zionists makes that easy because they supported the efforts of the 20th century's first organized mideast terrorists, the modern international religious extremists.

unfortunately most people believe that this starts in 1948.

was it any worse than africa, or the americas, or whatever? no.

but this movement clearly set out the goal of a jewish state for jews, not for palestinians, who at that time also included jews.

interestingly that link also has a bit on herzl's descendents that i'd never heard of, they had a rough run of luck.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

there aren't 2 types of Canadians, you either are, or you aren't, regardless of whether or not you hold other citizenships, were born here, were naturalized, etc. How you obtain it might be different, but once you have it, you're Canadian.

And this is where I disagree. We are indeed a community; and a good community takes care of those in need. However when those who were needy become not needy any longer; I expect them to take their turn as to helping others. A classic example would be to start paying taxes.

That is not to say that somebody who doesn't pay taxes doesn't have value in our country. That was just one example.

What I look at is the "what if everybody did this" situation. There's about 35 million of us living in Canada right now, and about 6 billion who don't. What if every country had 1% of its citizens get Canadian citizenship just for the sake of protection in times of need. That would mean 35 million of responsible for the well being of 60 million people. There's no way we can afford it.

It may not be a problem now; but I'm sure they also said back in the 60's that homelessness wasn't a problem back then either. And by doing nothing look at the mess that has happened. Rather than letting it slide until it becomes a huge problem that cannot be dealt with, let's take care of it now.

Should we have helped those people? Yes. But let's use this example to lay out the ground work to make sure we aren't creating a slippery slope.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Fair enough... I guess I just don't agree that dual-citizens living in one of their countries residences are automatically 'some jerk' leeching off the Canadian people. They are Canadian... there aren't 2 types of Canadians, you either are, or you aren't, regardless of whether or not you hold other citizenships, were born here, were naturalized, etc. How you obtain it might be different, but once you have it, you're Canadian.

Just because you have a Passport that reads "citizen of Canada" on it doesn't mean your a Canadian IMO. Being a Canadian means wanting to live, work, participate and further Canadian society. Just because 90% of my blood comes from Britian doesn't mean i am British. "I AM CANADIAN". You are not Canadian if you come here for three years, obtain CC and then bugger off back to your home country never to return unless it benifits you. You are not Canadian if you arrive here, claim Refugee status, milk the system while your waiting to be determined and once you become Canadian, you take off back to your home country....the same country that you claimed refugee against....the same country that was SOOOOOOOOO bad that if you went back, you would be killed.

Canada gets played.......played hard. We are a bunch of gullible losers and these deadbeats ruin it for the people that want to be Canadian. The ones that want to live and work here. The ones that want to bring there family here.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by jolinar of malkshor

Canada gets played.......played hard. We are a bunch of gullible losers and these deadbeats ruin it for the people that want to be Canadian. The ones that want to live and work here. The ones that want to bring there family here.

big-time agree.

the problem in my opinion is the system.

people will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS take any system for what they can.

witness welfare, first nations reparations, etc.

i'm not sure what the solution is, but the problem is the way that we do business.

[jolinar of malkshor]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

To those who want citizenship to have a price... Canadian citizenship does have a price: $200 plus the passport fee. Coming to Canada as an immigrant has a price: $975 up until May this year, 50% reduction since. Refugees had to pay the $975 fee until 2000. Immigration application fee and other:
quote]

Well woop iteee dooo. $500 bucks to become a PR. Do you know how much it costs to administer this program? Paying all the people that work in all the Embassies around the world? It is call cost recovery. Why should I pay for someone else to obtain there PR status?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger;612214
in the past i've found some interesting stuff on israel.com but the site changed, the content isn't the same and my old links don't work.

but from the old israel.com i did find aish.com, which i've used on this forum in the past.

[URL

http://www.aish.com/aishint/about-us.asp[/URL]

Since its launch in February 2000, Aish.com has become the world’s largest Jewish content website, logging over 3 million monthly user sessions with 200,000 unique email subscribers.

the content in question, quoting Ginsberg from his 1897 book "The Jewish State and the Jewish":

http://www.aish.com/literacy/jewishh...rn_Zionism.asp

"This Jewish settlement, which will be a gradual growth, will become in course of time the center of the nation, wherein its spirit will find pure expression and develop in all its aspects to the highest degree of perfection of which it is capable. Then, from this center the spirit of Judaism will radiate to the great circumference, to all the communities of the Diaspora, to inspire them with new life and to preserve the over-all unity of our people. When our national culture in Palestine has attained that level, we may be confident that it will produce men in the Land of itself who will be able, at a favorable moment, to establish a State there -- one which will be not merely a State of Jews but really a Jewish State."

it's important to realize that the zionist movement was not aboot peace with the arabs, it was aboot colonization.

i'm not here to say that there shouldn't be a little piece of the mideast set aside, i mean israel only constitutes one TENTH of 1% of the arab lands.

but the manner in which it was created cased a lot of friction and most people simply aren't aware that this open wound has never been allowed to heal.

arab leaders can always point to israel as the cause of their problems, and the constantly aggressive nature of the early zionists makes that easy because they supported the efforts of the 20th century's first organized mideast terrorists, the modern international religious extremists.

unfortunately most people believe that this starts in 1948.

was it any worse than africa, or the americas, or whatever? no.

but this movement clearly set out the goal of a jewish state for jews, not for palestinians, who at that time also included jews.

interestingly that link also has a bit on herzl's descendents that i'd never heard of, they had a rough run of luck.

The clear goal of Zionism as put forth at the First Zionist COnference was "a compromise formula proposed by Herzl was eventually adopted: Zionism seeks to establish a home for the Jewish people in Eretz*Israel secured under public law. The Congress contemplates the following means to the attainment of this end:

1. The promotion by appropriate means of the settlement in Eretz-Israel of Jewish farmers, artisans, and manufacturers.
2. The organization and uniting of the whole of Jewry by means of appropriate institutions, both local and international, in accordance with the laws of each country.
3. The strengthening and fostering of Jewish national sentiment and national consciousness.
4. Preparatory steps toward obtaining the consent of governments, where necessary, in order to reach the goals of Zionism."

Herzel was not looking for Jewish colonies, he wanted to be free of the anti-semitism he was witnessing in Europe.

It might not have been about peace, but war was not on the agenda either, and I don't see where they "call for ...the arabs to be scattered"

I don't think forced removal was in the plan at all (until maybe the '48 war), otherwise why did the early settlers waste all that cash on land that was considered unfarmable and unlivable and was at the time unoccupied?

Also, Herzel and most of his contemperaries were educated secular "renassaince" men, and as such wouldn't they believe in a Jewish democratic state where the arab is an equal participant.

Ginsberg's" vision for the Jewish state was a place where the modern Jew could create a new secular, progressive, "enlightened" state"

Wouldn't peaceful coexistance be included in and enlighted state?


A Jewish State is not a state for Jews only. It is one where the weekend is Friday & Saturday rather than Saturday and Sunday. One where Kosher (and consequently Halal) food is the same price or cheaper than non-kosher food. Where kids won't be looked down on if they miss school because of a Jewish holiday. The statutory holidays are different (open for business on Dec. 25).

Ethnic cleansing was not in the cards.

[RougeUnderoos]

[quote=jolinar of malkshor;612296]

Well woop iteee dooo. $500 bucks to become a PR. Do you know how much it costs to administer this program? Paying all the people that work in all the Embassies around the world? It is call cost recovery. Why should I pay for someone else to obtain there PR status?

I don't know how much it costs to administer the program. Do you?

What is the alternative to having those Embassies all around the world and an immigration bureaucracy?

Shut down the embassies, seal the borders, and we'll all be better off I suppose.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Herzel was not looking for Jewish colonies, he wanted to be free of the anti-semitism he was witnessing in Europe.

herzl was, that is true. but not the banking interests that backed zionists, the rothschilds et al. they supported the terrorists as well as the harder edge of zionism that baited anti-semitism.

anti-semitism is an ugly and an old tradition, but there's a reason it was reaching a fevered pitch in europe in the early 20th century.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

It might not have been about peace, but war was not on the agenda either, and I don't see where they "call for ...the arabs to be scattered"

you can't have a jewish state without displacing someone. the agreements to partition palestine were not as participatory as everyone seems to think.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

I don't think forced removal was in the plan at all (until maybe the '48 war), otherwise why did the early settlers waste all that cash on land that was considered unfarmable and unlivable and was at the time unoccupied?

the plan of the early settlers was not the plan of many interests behind this whole mess. this is supposed to be a point of contention, it's supposed to be an open wound.

the settlers genuinely wanted to 'make the desert bloom', but while they were busy doing that, the stern gang (and many others) was massacreing villages.

the level of zionist-backed terror was very high, i am continually shocked at how little people know of this.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Also, Herzel and most of his contemperaries were educated secular "renassaince" men, and as such wouldn't they believe in a Jewish democratic state where the arab is an equal participant.

the zionist movement let all kinds of trash in the door, most notably international banking interests that profit from war. their original message of peace was long, long ago poisoned.

Originally Posted by Bleeding Red

Ethnic cleansing was not in the cards.

ethnic cleansing is ALWAYS in the cards when people are motivated and feel that land is theirs.

[Bleeding Red]

[quote=jolinar of malkshor;612296]

Well woop iteee dooo. $500 bucks to become a PR. Do you know how much it costs to administer this program? Paying all the people that work in all the Embassies around the world? It is call cost recovery. Why should I pay for someone else to obtain there PR status?

It's all about the perception of the deadbeat freeloader. They don't share any of the burden but expect full benefits. I think creating the requirement to file a Canadian Tax return at least once every three years sheds this perception.

Would we be having this discussion if we knew that every evacuee paid Canadian Taxes at least once in the last three years - essentially paying for part of the evacuation cost?

Once the total cost of the evacuation comes out the debate will start again.

Ayrahb is right, if you don't like the current policy write to parliment hill.
I also don't think it is a racial issue. I have had discussions about wheather Micheal J. Fox can really be considered "Canadian" anymore - especially since he has become politically charged (I think he even refers to himself as American these days). I think most ex-pat celebs consider themselves Americans first and their citizenship should be questioned - should they have a say in our politics when it really won't effect them? Is Shania Canadian, American, or Swiss?

If citizenship were a right, we could be citizens of any country we choose. But we can't. Citizenship is conferred upon you by a country and can be revoked by that country. For example, the duel-citizen sex-offender that was deprted to Canada by the US, Priemer McGinty was looking into having his citizenship revoked and forcing him back to the US.

[Red Mile Style]

Originally Posted by Ayrahb

I would expect that the naturalized Canadians who obey the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the Income Tax Act and the Criminal Code of Canada would get the treatment equal to that of Canadians born in Canada, whatever that might be.

But let's go back to reality:

These people will never be consider Canadians by a certain segment of the population. One may draw parallels between them and the "snowbirds" or the entertainment industry people 'til the cows come home - I doubt it would change such opinions.

Is it racism/prejudice? Probably for some. For others it might be just about the bottom line or about the opinion that these people were guilty of terrorism by association. Or speaking of naturalized citizens generally, the fact that the huddled masses will never be able to pay their debt to Canada completely.

If you don't like the current situation write to the Immigration Minister Monte Solberg:

Parliament Hill Office
Room 107, Confederation Building
House of Commons
Ottawa ON K1A 0A6 (postage free)
Phone: 613 992-4516 Fax: 613 992-6181
solbem@parl.gc.ca
Office of the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration Canada
365 Laurier Ave. W. 21st floor
Jean Edmonds Tower South
Ottawa, ON, K1A 1L1

Or maybe organize rallies, public education campaigns, start a new political party. I heard and saw enough complaining on message boards, QR77 and the Calgary Sun letters. Your people are in Ottawa - maybe you can do something about it now.

And yes, you have to pass a test too. I would actually like the Canadian citizenship fees and tests to be instituted for everyone, even if you were born here.

If you think Canadian Immigration is bad, you should look at the U.S. Have you ever heard of the minutemen? They actually shoot people who try to cross the border. Canada's immigration laws are anything but racist, I can kind of see if you've never left Calgary, the place is extremely white, but places like Vancouver and Toronto will give you a better idea.

Making a fee mandatory for citizenship is ridiculous! What if a family can not afford the fee? The child becomes a refugee! Where is this reality you're speaking of?

[Looger]

Bleeding Red,

I really believe that israel has a right to exist.

but as long as there is a gangster element in their military and political establishment that pushes for war all the time, combined with israeli military supremacy, then there will never be peace.

the constant kidnappings by both sides never sparked incursions into lebanon before.

elements within israel wanted to ratchet this crap up another notch.

these elements are clearly tied to the neo-cons running america into as many wars as they can.

if lebanon could defend itself properly, hezbullah would not exist, and the PLO wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

jordan is a clear case of this.

as long as israel enjoys total dominance of the airspace over lebanon there can NEVER BE PEACE because that advantage is used.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

I don't know how much it costs to administer the program. Do you?

What is the alternative to having those Embassies all around the world and an immigration bureaucracy?

Shut down the embassies, seal the borders, and we'll all be better off I suppose.

All I am saying is there is a need to charge these people to process their request. Not to mention, how many do you think get denied? Probably a lot.

Never once did I say we should shut down the embassies. I am saying we NEED to charge these people, it should have stayed at $975. But the conservative wanted to by some immigrant votes.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style

Making a fee mandatory for citizenship is ridiculous! What if a family can not afford the fee? The child becomes a refugee! Where is this reality you're speaking of?

It costs like $80 bucks....you have to pay that for a passport, so why not to process your citizenship docs?

Hell I had to pay $65 for a god damn birth certificate last week and all they did was push the fricken print button.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Looger

Bleeding Red,

I really believe that israel has a right to exist.

but as long as there is a gangster element in their military and political establishment that pushes for war all the time, combined with israeli military supremacy, then there will never be peace.

the constant kidnappings by both sides never sparked incursions into lebanon before.

elements within israel wanted to ratchet this crap up another notch.

these elements are clearly tied to the neo-cons running america into as many wars as they can.

if lebanon could defend itself properly, hezbullah would not exist, and the PLO wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

jordan is a clear case of this.

as long as israel enjoys total dominance of the airspace over lebanon there can NEVER BE PEACE because that advantage is used.

So why don't the Muslim countries just go in and take over Israel?

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Red Mile Style;612346Making a fee mandatory for citizenship is ridiculous! What if a family can not afford the fee? The child becomes a refugee! Where is this [I

reality[/I] you're speaking of?

they wouldn't become a refugee, as you have to be a PR before you can apply for citizenship. So...I am not sure what your talking about with regards to refugees???

[Flash Walken]

are people really crying over the 31 million dollars it took to evacuate canadian citizens from a war-torn area? 31 million?

A billion dollar gun registry, but a potential human life is worth less than 2100 dollars?

Maybe canada should be sending the bill to Israel.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

are people really crying over the 31 million dollars it took to evacuate canadian citizens from a war-torn area? 31 million?

A billion dollar gun registry, but a potential human life is worth less than 2100 dollars?

Maybe canada should be sending the bill to Israel.

Thats the problem with the Liberals. Ahhh...it's just 31 million. no worries it's just tax payers money.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

are people really crying over the 31 million dollars it took to evacuate canadian citizens from a war-torn area? 31 million?

A billion dollar gun registry, but a potential human life is worth less than 2100 dollars?

Well, that's really it isn't it? The amount of pork barrel politics going on is stunning, yet people get their panties in a twist over $31million to help Canadian citizens.

[ken0042]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

are people really crying over the 31 million dollars it took to evacuate canadian citizens from a war-torn area? 31 million?

No; not that it cost $31 Million. The question is how much did we spend to evacuate people who may be citizens of convenience. And it is the status of those "citizens" is what we are disputing.

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Looger

Bleeding Red,

I really believe that israel has a right to exist.

I beleive you do too.

but as long as there is a gangster element in their military and political establishment that pushes for war all the time, combined with israeli military supremacy, then there will never be peace.

Maybe the inquries that may (or may not) happen can root some of these guys out. There will be change at the top on the military (good or bad, it's yet to be seen) and alot of the 'old gaurd' needs to move on (Peres, Shalom, Bibi) and some of the new gaurd need to be leashed (Leiberman, belin). Eventually the "gangsters" will be outnumbered and less powerful.

the constant kidnappings by both sides never sparked incursions into lebanon before.

I think the events in Gaza at the time sparked this one.

elements within israel wanted to ratchet this crap up another notch.

No doubt it was a ****ing contest between Halutz and Nasrallah.

these elements are clearly tied to the neo-cons running america into as many wars as they can.

I don't see it, but I am not well read on the neo-con thing.

if lebanon could defend itself properly, hezbullah would not exist, and the PLO wouldn't have gone there in the first place.

jordan is a clear case of this.

as long as israel enjoys total dominance of the airspace over lebanon there can NEVER BE PEACE because that advantage is used.

COuld there be peace if the Lebanese gov made concrete efforts to remove the militants out of their midst?

I see you point, I guess not because at the first (maybe second) sign of trouble Israel would jump in with supirior air power, claiming that Lebanon can't do it so it is up to Israel defend itself.

But could this not end up a bit of a catch-22 - what would Lebanon use newofund airpower for? hizzbollah has parlimentary seats, the Lebanese gov could easily vote to use force on Israel rather then the militants in it's midst.

I think the key is the world helping the Lebanese gov get a handle on their army and the militants rather than bringing their arms up to par with Israel's.