Another great Olbermann commentary

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

It sounds like JohnnyFlame is actually complaining about the choices, not about the idea of democracy itself. But it's a tree-in-the-forest kind of question: if you don't vote, do you live in a democracy? I sort of think the answer is no.

There aren't perfect choices--there aren't perfect systems. But you have to participate in the system to the extent you're allowed to, or it falls apart. Democracy is in a sense an oligarchy of the non-apathetic. Those who are too lazy to vote live in a dictatorship--even if most of the time they don't care.

[ericschand]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

It's not all that big of an assumption. In the scenario I provided, I could see the NDP trying to impose a large estate tax, and the Conservatives being against it.

I know it's nice and easy to say "they are all the same", but clearly they have some ideological differences.

I said it before, I'll say it again. There will be no change in the
governing "policies" [and I'm using the term very loosely] until either
of the top 2 or 3 parties are voted out.

Doesn't matter who you vote in, they are all the same, pandering
to their own interests, screw everyone else. Every one of our
representatives goes in rich, comes out richer. I wish every term
was as kind to me.

I don't care if it's Green, Rhino, Communist, small-crazy-bunch-who-want-
weed-and-not-much-else. Vote for someone else. When that goes
over 33%, only then will you see the top 3 cater to the populous, instead
of to pandering to lobbying interests. It might take 8 to 10 years, but
it is the only way to get ourselves out of the mess they call
governing.

This goes for USA as well as, and more importantly, Canada.

ers

[JohnnyFlame]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

It sounds like JohnnyFlame is actually complaining about the choices, not about the idea of democracy itself. But it's a tree-in-the-forest kind of question: if you don't vote, do you live in a democracy? I sort of think the answer is no.

There aren't perfect choices--there aren't perfect systems. But you have to participate in the system to the extent you're allowed to, or it falls apart. Democracy is in a sense an oligarchy of the non-apathetic. Those who are too lazy to vote live in a dictatorship--even if most of the time they don't care.

Rubbish. Cliche rubbish. I live in a democracy and it isn't falling apart. Is that because of the vote/non vote. Hardly people have voted less and less as they see what their votes put in place. They try and change things we really care about and we won't bother going to the voting booth to put them out. The elitists always think they are doing something special == yep we vote and keep this country or that one going. Nope you don't. The influence on your vote is controlled to a large degree by big money as is the agenda. Try geting involved and running for office. LOL you better have a sugar daddy behind you with a whole lot of cash.

The system needs a complete overhaul but you can't get elected unless you have cash and you can't stay in power unless you compromise what you believe.

No thanks. Everyone once in awhile I see some hopeful signs where guys are trying to put in campaign finance limits and etc. etc. but they always get smoked.

Our democracy has been taken over -- if there was ever a real populous movement to get us back to some actual democracy I could get with the program but exchanging one set of trough feeders for another isn't my idea of democracy in action.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Rubbish. Cliche rubbish. I live in a democracy and it isn't falling apart. Is that because of the vote/non vote. Hardly people have voted less and less as they see what their votes put in place. They try and change things we really care about and we won't bother going to the voting booth to put them out. The elitists always think they are doing something special == yep we vote and keep this country or that one going. Nope you don't. The influence on your vote is controlled to a large degree by big money as is the agenda. Try geting involved and running for office. LOL you better have a sugar daddy behind you with a whole lot of cash.

The system needs a complete overhaul but you can't get elected unless you have cash and you can't stay in power unless you compromise what you believe.

No thanks. Everyone once in awhile I see some hopeful signs where guys are trying to put in campaign finance limits and etc. etc. but they always get smoked.

Our democracy has been taken over -- if there was ever a real populous movement to get us back to some actual democracy I could get with the program but exchanging one set of trough feeders for another isn't my idea of democracy in action.

Good post. I agree.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFlame

Rubbish. Cliche rubbish. I live in a democracy and it isn't falling apart.

I can see now how my post was unclear, so let me restate it. You do not live in a democracy. Why? Because you don't vote. You live in an oligarchy run by those people who've decided to get off their asses and participate in the process. Because you don't vote, it's not a democracy for you--it's a dictatorship. No-one's saying that there are perfect choices out there. But to say there are no substantive differences between the parties is, as you say "Cliche rubbish." In fact, nothing is more cliched than the guy who sits at home saying "they're all corrupt. I'm not voting for any of them."

Will you change things just by voting? Heck no. Voting is the MINIMAL level of participation in democracy. The system isn't set up to value a single vote that much. The good news is that there are many other ways for you to participate, and they don't all involve putting on a paper hat and going to a rally. So you don't vote: fine. What ARE you doing to improve the situation? If it's nothing, then I'm not sure what to say--except that you'll get exactly the government you deserve.

It sounds like you want politics to be easy. It never will be. It will always be a decision between one imperfect choice and another--or in a multi-party system, many imperfect choices. That doesn't mean you don't participate--that would be giving up.

After all, what's the alternative? If everyone stops participating, will that create positive change? Your position isn't just a cliche (though it is most definitely that); worse, it's nihilistic.