Pres. Debate tonight

[Mike F]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Sep 30 2004, 07:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Sep 30 2004, 07:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mike F@Oct 1 2004, 02:20 AM
Anyone want to start a conspiracy out of the fact that it's FOX News and in every split screen W's podium is higher?

What do you mean by "it's Fox News"? [/b][/quote]
Ah, now I see what you mean... The two channels I checked both had fox news' feed so I assumed the networks were switching nights, but now I see they all had it.

Sigh, no conspiracy wackos :unsure:

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 1 2004, 02:26 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 1 2004, 02:26 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-CaramonLS@Oct 1 2004, 02:23 AM

Too bad you only have time for drive-bys on yours truely... you should really get in front of a TV and watch.

You should really mind your own business....you have no idea why I'm unable to watch right now...and it's pretty freaking easy to type for 20 seconds and hit the 'add reply' button while accomplishing other things I need to do at the same time. [/b][/quote]
*tear*

[Lanny_MacDonald]

That's it. It's over. I think it was pretty close. Bush opened up well but closed poorly. Kerry pulled away at the end and I think took this debate. Bush continually tried to hammer Kerry on the "flip-flop" issue, but Kerry was extremely effective in defending himself and explaining that as more information comes available it is wise to adjust your position to the new intel. Bush did make one thing abundantly clear, he has put in a lot of "hardwork".

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Delgar@Oct 1 2004, 02:27 AM

Are you trying to say Bush is bright? Surely, you jest.

He's got more mental horsepower than some may give him credit for. Still, he's easily the least intelligent US president in my lifetime.

And that doesn't mean that Kerry will beat him in a debate. Bush is holding his own, for the most part he knows what he should say. He's well prepared, and knows what the issues will be. Not to mention the fact he's been living the issues for 4 years now, he should know them.

But I find it embarssing that he's leading the free world.

Now this I can live with.

Bush is not the moron he's made out to be. Is he Einsteinish? Nope, and I never once suggested he was....just trying to temper the polar views that are oh so hip and popular...and wrong.

Not sure how old you are, but I don't think I could make a strong argument that he's smarter than any of the Presidents in my lifetime. Nixon was very brainy. Ford had the same public perception as Bush......just watch the old SNL skits with Chevy Chase playing the role of Ford (not the falling part, although that's very funny and appropriate at the time). Ford's a pretty swift guy from the interviews I've seen. Carter is a very intelligent man. Reagan was a good leader, not sure how smart he was...and later in his second term Alzheimer's was starting to take a toll on the perception of his intelligence. Bush's Dad, would be the best guy to take a shot at for being less intelligent. Was never that impressed with him. Clinton is an idiot, but he's a very smart idiot.

It's funny that when someone argues against a polar view, they are automatically assumed to reside at the polar opposite viewpoint. Wonder why?

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by CaramonLS+Oct 1 2004, 02:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (CaramonLS @ Oct 1 2004, 02:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

You should really mind your own business....you have no idea why I'm unable to watch right now...and it's pretty freaking easy to type for 20 seconds and hit the 'add reply' button while accomplishing other things I need to do at the same time.

*tear* [/b][/quote]
Keep talking. When you grow up you'll understand that you are consumed by different things than you were when you were a kid. We all go through it...so will you.

[CaramonLS]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan@Oct 1 2004, 02:36 AM
It's funny that when someone argues against a polar view, they are automatically assumed to reside at the polar opposite viewpoint. Wonder why?

Kinda like when you were saying that I said Bush was a moron - Even though (you can reread my posts (IF YOU HAVE TIME)) I did not.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by CaramonLS@Oct 1 2004, 02:42 AM

Kinda like when you were saying that I said Bush was a moron - Even though (you can reread my posts (IF YOU HAVE TIME)) I did not.

Semantics in that case.

Either way, even if you don't believe Bush to be a moron like I suggested you do, the situation doesn't really apply to what you quoted me on.

[RougeUnderoos]

Unfortunately (because it was so much fun) I've had to give up the ghost on my favorite "Bush is a Moron" theory. Maybe he's even brilliant, because it's kind of hard to convince people that you are dumb even if you keep beating them and you are their boss.

I don't think he "won" tonight, but he didn't lose as bad as I hoped he would. He probably lost a few points though. He couldn't hammer home the "he flipflops"message at all. He tried, but it didn't seem to work. I thought Kerry had the best line about that when he said roughly "I changed my mind. The other campaign has a word for that, but that's what people do when things need to change". Real optimistic people might think that he finally slayed the "FlipFlop Dragon". Maybe. Bush mentioned it a few times (without using the phrase "FlipFlop"but the rebuttal was "you gotta change if it's not working" and " Bush is promising more of the same and it's not working".

George's schoolboy habit of scowling and shaking his head while Kerry spoke was a total amateur-hour performance. That was silly. He obviously knew that the camera was on him -- he should have been trying to look somewhat dignified and thoughtful. Instead, he came across like a wronged plaintiff on the People's Court.

[jonesy]

Lanny: "Kerry was extremely effective in defending himself and explaining that as more information comes available it is wise to adjust your position to the new intel."

Well now, I guess Bush should use this same quote tomorrow to explain his Iraq position eh? WMD -> new intel -> free Iraqi people

I think Kerry gave him a huge door to walk through.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Unfortunately Bush doesn't have the ability to make changes mid stream. This is where he got killed in tonight's debate. I think he was extremely poor at trying to answer Kerry because he had to try and react. Unless its scripted he struggles.

Bottom line on the debate was when NBC cut to a group of six undecided voters in Ohio. None of them said they had changed their mind when orignially asked, but by the end of the interview all six had said that Kerry was much more impressive, more presidental and appeared to be the stronger leader. They all agreed that Kerry won the debate. This was Bush's night to shine and he didn't live up to expectations. One down, two to go.

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Lanny_MacDonald@Oct 1 2004, 02:36 AM
That's it. It's over. I think it was pretty close. Bush opened up well but closed poorly. Kerry pulled away at the end and I think took this debate.

That's funny. I thought it was the other way around.

A nervous, fumbling, visibly fidgeting Bush early on but getting his sea legs at the end and finishing confidently.

I thought Kerry was whupping Bush's ass for the first half hour, fairly even in the middle and a modest edge to Bush down the stretch.

Both scored some shots. Bush's hesitancy and pauses throughout the night wouldn't help him. Kerry looked cool and confident for much of the night and seemed to know the camera was on him all the time (cutaway's) whereas Bush did not, which might play an edge to Kerry with an impressionable public (as Nixon found out).

The message to the American people will now be filtered through a billion analysts from all sides. I was watching some BBC work afterwards and they were impressed with Kerry's style but not his substance (kind of odd for that particular news outlet).

The FOX feed was used by all networks as per pre-agreement.

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Oct 1 2004, 03:05 AM


The FOX feed was used by all networks as per pre-agreement.

Cowperson

You mean in Canada, correct?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 30 2004, 09:05 PM
Bush's hesitancy and pauses throughout the night wouldn't help him.

Ha ha no doubt. I was watching and when he hit those pauses I was just thinking "keep staring keep silent this is where he loses it'll be 10 seconds of just staring hang on Georgie you can do it" but he never went that long. Funny how "dramatic" just a few seconds can be when it's so important. A couple times there if he just stalled for 4 more seconds that would have been the story of the night.

I also thought George was getting buried early but he came back pretty strong. That bit about "I appreciate Senator Kerry's service and his kids yak yak yak" and then they shared a couple chuckles was something of a turning point in George's favor.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Sep 30 2004, 09:14 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Sep 30 2004, 09:14 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Oct 1 2004, 03:05 AM


The FOX feed was used by all networks as per pre-agreement.

Cowperson

You mean in Canada, correct? [/b][/quote]
I'm not sure but I think Cowperson might mean that the Fox cameras were used by everyone tonight. I watched it on CNN with CNN graphics during and CNN personalities right after, but I think every channel had the same "feed" or video, provided by Fox. I know for certain that Jim Lehrer would never work for Fox :P .

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by Displaced Flames fan+Oct 1 2004, 03:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Displaced Flames fan @ Oct 1 2004, 03:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Oct 1 2004, 03:05 AM


The FOX feed was used by all networks as per pre-agreement.

Cowperson

You mean in Canada, correct? [/b][/quote]
I mean FOX supplied the equipment and cameramen and they were the only camera's in the building I believe. The "feed" was used by all networks in the USA and whereever.

I'm pretty sure that was the prior agreement. A different network I think is doing the same thing for the next debate.

I also thought George was getting buried early but he came back pretty strong. That bit about "I appreciate Senator Kerry's service and his kids yak yak yak" and then they shared a couple chuckles was something of a turning point in George's favor.

I agree. It settled him down a bit.

Cowperson

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally posted by RougeUnderoos@Oct 1 2004, 03:20 AM

I'm not sure but I think Cowperson might mean that the Fox cameras were used by everyone tonight. I watched it on CNN with CNN graphics during and CNN personalities right after, but I think every channel had the same "feed" or video, provided by Fox. I know for certain that Jim Lehrer would never work for Fox :P .

I wonder what that's all about? Logistics? Not enough room for 10 different networks production teams? Interesting...I would guess the next debate will use a feed from a network other than Fox.

Hey, if you find a link to the actual video footage before I do could you email me with it?

[CaptainCrunch]

I really don't believe that Kerry got the knockout punch that he needed to help his campaign. he's really going to need a stronger and more decisive effort in the next debate.

A victory in points helps neither of these guys.

And even though neither of them looked all that presidential in this debate the participants certainly looked like 100x the leaders that were provided up here during our leadership debates

[FlamesAllTheWay]

All the talking heads on CNN said Kerry won this one. Not in the sense that he delivered a knockout blow to Bush, but he stopped most of the momentum the Bush campaign had and swung some of it in his favour. I just saw two clips: one of Bush bringing up Kerry's flip/flopping and one of Kerry saying how close we were to bin Laden, but then how the Bush admin used Afghan's to move in and try and catch him instead of "the best troops in the world."

Wish I coulda watched it though...

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Oct 1 2004, 03:44 AM
I really don't believe that Kerry got the knockout punch that he needed to help his campaign. he's really going to need a stronger and more decisive effort in the next debate.

A victory in points helps neither of these guys.

And even though neither of them looked all that presidential in this debate the participants certainly looked like 100x the leaders that were provided up here during our leadership debates

I agree. He didn't get the knockout punch. But he did very well in terms of style and the appearance of confidence. He also showed little respect for Bush which I thought was wise, going for the throat and appearing to belittle him. It appeared to rattle Bush early on and it showed.

As one pundit put it in the analysis afterwards, Kerry probably did well enough that more people will watch the second debate than watched the first and that is probably a help to the challenger.

Bush was the less clear speaker, scattered in his points at times. Leaning over the lecturn instead of standing straight also wasn't wise nor were the hesitations.

The flip side is that Kerry is probably going to get toasted on a few things in the post-game analysis.

Also, when Kerry was talking of the "nobility of our troops in Iraq" I was already envisioning the new Swiftboat Veteran ads we're going to see with those words interspersed with Kerry's Vietnam era "baby-killer" comments they're already using in commercials.

All the talking heads on CNN said Kerry won this one.

I thought they were a campaign organ of the Republican Party?

Cowperson

[RougeUnderoos]

The first half hour of commentary on Aaron Brown's 10pm show has Kerry as the clear winner. A couple correspondents said that Bush "aides" said the same thing, but were happy that he didn't get killed.

I think in the real "debates' that are yet to come, George best be quite careful. In the scripted version tonight he got a little edgy. More than once tonight you could tell he was p*ssed off. That is not going to work.