Root of all evil

[Calgaryborn]

Perhaps I missed it But, it appears the two options given is abstinence or sex with multiple partners. What every happened to the third option: Multiply sex acts with your spouse. That's effective in curbing the spread of Aids and is far more positive than the other two.

Not many of us would knowingly have sex with someone who had the aids virus. I wouldn't consider it even with a condom. It is two risky. If these Africans have been misled into believing a condom makes sex with someone who probably has aids safe; they need to be reeducated.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

Perhaps I missed it But, it appears the two options given is abstinence or sex with multiple partners. What every happened to the third option: Multiply sex acts with your spouse. That's effective in curbing the spread of Aids and is far more positive than the other two.

Not many of us would knowingly have sex with someone who had the aids virus. I wouldn't consider it even with a condom. It is two risky. If these Africans have been misled into believing a condom makes sex with someone who probably has aids safe; they need to be reeducated.

Sure. No one is saying condoms protect you from AIDS 100% of the time. Seatbelts don't protect people when driving 100% of the time. But if you're going to drive (and most people do), its just a good idea to wear it. Would you be ulitmately safer if you never drove? Or just drove a bike? Sure... but thats just not the way people operate.

I don't get how a combination of abstinence, condoms, and education isn't the best way to go. Why not use every tool at our disposal?

[peter12]

I don't get how a combination of abstinence, condoms, and education isn't the best way to go. Why not use every tool at our disposal?

You're right. That is the absolute best way to go.

From what I hear and read, HIV/AIDS is spread primarily by reckless young men sleeping with mulitiple partners other than their wife, coming home, having sex with her and giving her the virus. The virus then is spread to their children either through mother to fetus or through breast milk. Women are often the victims of the disease and yet they are helpless to speak up against their husbands.

What you have going on here is a cultural phenomenon almost akin to cultural exploitation of women. What I would add to yours is more political and economic empowerment to women. So treatment for AIDS should go beyond sexual education etc... It should include increased micro loans to young women entrepenuers.

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What i'm laughing at is your preposterous assertion that more than 14 million africans have actively sought the aids virus for the purpose of infecting others.

I'm not quite sure where I said half actively sought it for the purposes of spreading, but I said it's likely that half contracted it due to either bug chasing OR being with someone who was trying to spread it...

"It's likely that half those with AIDS spread it on purpose and how do you stop that?"

You should not read into that more than there is. Not sure how you get out of that that half those with AIDS purposely contracted it, but you just keep laughing then...

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Wouldn't it just be better for the Church to promote the usage of Condoms *if* you plan on having sex. But then reaffirming their stance saying the only way to garentee protection from HIV is through abstinance.

That to me would make the most sense, and it isn't contradictory. I think it would be the most effective way of helping stop the spread of disease.

I'm not saying it isn't the best thing for the Church to promote. I'm not trying to justify or defend what the Church is saying at all. It is however their belief that people should remain abstinant until marriage and they are free to promote that stance. That *some* ministers are saying using condoms WILL give you AIDS is a bit much, but I can understand where he's coming from when you're dealing with an uneducated culture that has rampant sex with multiple partners. Apparently they just don't *get* that they're killing themselves off.... or perhaps they don't care.

My point is that to blame the Catholic Church for all the problems with AIDS in Africa is ridiculous and ignorant. Has anyone stopped and asked these people if they know about condoms? If they replied yes, were they asked whether or not they used them and why or why not? No. Such a survey has never been done, and it's likely that a large proportion of these people are aware of condoms and don't want to use them even though they are fully aware that without them, they likely will contract a disease that will kill them. It's just a handy tool to blame the Catholics for not solving all the world's problems. There are more people in the world who are not Catholics than who are... I'm going to blame them. DOWN WITH THE BUDDISTS FOR NOT GOING INTO AFRICA PRAISING THE USE OF CONDOMS! **** that.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by FireFly

I'm not saying it isn't the best thing for the Church to promote. I'm not trying to justify or defend what the Church is saying at all. It is however their belief that people should remain abstinant until marriage and they are free to promote that stance. That *some* ministers are saying using condoms WILL give you AIDS is a bit much, but I can understand where he's coming from when you're dealing with an uneducated culture that has rampant sex with multiple partners. Apparently they just don't *get* that they're killing themselves off.... or perhaps they don't care.

My point is that to blame the Catholic Church for all the problems with AIDS in Africa is ridiculous and ignorant. Has anyone stopped and asked these people if they know about condoms? If they replied yes, were they asked whether or not they used them and why or why not? No. Such a survey has never been done, and it's likely that a large proportion of these people are aware of condoms and don't want to use them even though they are fully aware that without them, they likely will contract a disease that will kill them. It's just a handy tool to blame the Catholics for not solving all the world's problems. There are more people in the world who are not Catholics than who are... I'm going to blame them. DOWN WITH THE BUDDISTS FOR NOT GOING INTO AFRICA PRAISING THE USE OF CONDOMS! **** that.

People are harping on the Catholic church because they have a great deal of power and influence in various regions of Africa. Do Buddhists? They don't have even close to the number of followers in Africa that Christianity has. The reason people are saying the church should do more, is because they have the power to do so. Moreso than many other instituations in Africa.

That *some* ministers are saying using condoms WILL give you AIDS is a bit much, but I can understand where he's coming from when you're dealing with an uneducated culture that has rampant sex with multiple partners. Apparently they just don't *get* that they're killing themselves off.... or perhaps they don't care.

This is way over the top FF, the state of birth control when it comes to Africa is filled with misinformation and miseducation for precisely the reasons we have been discussing. There is no clear message coming into the various groups inside regions of Africa. You've got some groups spreading complete lies and misinformation when it comes to Birth control.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by peter12

I don't get how a combination of abstinence, condoms, and education isn't the best way to go. Why not use every tool at our disposal?

You're right. That is the absolute best way to go.

From what I hear and read, HIV/AIDS is spread primarily by reckless young men sleeping with mulitiple partners other than their wife, coming home, having sex with her and giving her the virus. The virus then is spread to their children either through mother to fetus or through breast milk. Women are often the victims of the disease and yet they are helpless to speak up against their husbands.

What you have going on here is a cultural phenomenon almost akin to cultural exploitation of women. What I would add to yours is more political and economic empowerment to women. So treatment for AIDS should go beyond sexual education etc... It should include increased micro loans to young women entrepenuers.

From what I've read both the men and the women within the culture engage in extramarital sex. It is more the norm then an exception to the rule. This practice is what's going to have to change.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Are you on drugs? Are you seriously trying to tell me that 14 million africans WANTED to get and transmit aids?

Don't want to get in the middle of this... but...

I was watching a special on CBC the other day about the AIDS crisis in Africa.

They interviewed a few HIV+ men in Africa and at least one of them knowingly and consciously had unprotected sex, spreading HIV. His rational? Well, I already have it, so what do I have to fear from getting it again?

He didn't appear to have any concept of "what if I give it to someone else". His only concern was himself.

Shocking, but I bet he's not alone in that thinking - in Africa or elsewhere in the world.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by calculoso

Don't want to get in the middle of this... but...

I was watching a special on CBC the other day about the AIDS crisis in Africa.

They interviewed a few HIV+ men in Africa and at least one of them knowingly and consciously had unprotected sex, spreading HIV. His rational? Well, I already have it, so what do I have to fear from getting it again?

He didn't appear to have any concept of "what if I give it to someone else". His only concern was himself.

Shocking, but I bet he's not alone in that thinking - in Africa or elsewhere in the world.

Again, I'm not arguing that that isn't the case. I'm sure it is. I'm also sure if you said to someone who's entire exisience is devoted to sustaining their own lives in their mudhuts that a virus spread through sexual intercourse is ravaging millions on their continent, they'd look at you cross-eyed. The african population as a whole does not have the capacity to debate various forms of birth control, not because they don't have the capacity to learn, but because this information is so staggering that it's simply incomprehensible.

The point is, the catholic church is contributing directly to the aids problem that they are also valiantly trying to help. I have great admiration for the work the catholic church does in the poorest regions of the world. Contrary to many of the replies in this thread, I'm not out to attack catholicism in some great encompassing crusade, I merely pointed out in a thread regarding religious extremism how that extremism can be very hurtful to select populations who really have no alternative but to accept the words and care of the organizations that they have learned to expect are acting in their best interest.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Again, I'm not arguing that that isn't the case. I'm sure it is. I'm also sure if you said to someone who's entire exisience is devoted to sustaining their own lives in their mudhuts that a virus spread through sexual intercourse is ravaging millions on their continent, they'd look at you cross-eyed. The african population as a whole does not have the capacity to debate various forms of birth control, not because they don't have the capacity to learn, but because this information is so staggering that it's simply incomprehensible.

The point is, the catholic church is contributing directly to the aids problem that they are also valiantly trying to help. I have great admiration for the work the catholic church does in the poorest regions of the world. Contrary to many of the replies in this thread, I'm not out to attack catholicism in some great encompassing crusade, I merely pointed out in a thread regarding religious extremism how that extremism can be very hurtful to select populations who really have no alternative but to accept the words and care of the organizations that they have learned to expect are acting in their best interest.

I can live with that.

The Catholic Church's biggest mistake is that they are trying to promote and implement a cultural guideline for groups of people that already have a culture that is virtually incompatable.

They are introducing a way of living that many Africans pick and choose from. The men will look at the discouragement of condoms and will adopt that because they like it, but then the part about abstinence and monogamy, they will ignore and choose to hold on to their tribal society beliefs because they prefer it. I would wager that most Africans who do not use condoms, do so because of their own personal choice regardless of what the Catholic community says. The church just becomes a convenient scapegoat since it is popular to blame the church for things, but taboo to blame practices within indigenous cultures. Until some scientific study is done with some kind of statistical relevance regarding people living with AIDS and their sexual practices before and after contact with the Catholic Church, this is all just guessing.

Personally, I think the Catholic Church should butt out and leave people to their own fate (for better or for worse), and it is no different than how certain secular governments try to promote their culture in foreign regions. It usually does more harm than good, but I do find it irresponsible when media sources only mention the discouragement of condom use, and fail to acknowledge the rest of the message.