Photo fraud; Reutergate et.al.

[HOZ]

More Stage management from the Green Helmet guy....you know the guy who sorrowfully pulled the dead child from the rubble in Qana. Then promptly showed 15 different news organisations over 2 hours.

Apparently he has been doing this for years.

From YouTube. German NDR filming Green Helmet guy.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Here is LA Times article on Reutergate.

Lebanon photos: Take a closer look by Tim Rutten

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...ck=1&cset=true

Here is a link to get to the article so you don't have to register. Follow the link

http://news.google.com/news?q=%22Leb...=news&ct=title

It's worth noting in this context that there is no similar flow of propagandistic images coming from the Israeli side of the border. That's because one side — the democratically elected government of Israel — views death as a tragedy and the other — the Iranian financed terrorist organization Hezbollah — sees it as an opportunity. In this case, turning their own dead children into material creates an opportunity to cloud the fact that every Lebanese casualty, tragic as he or she is, was killed or injured as an unavoidable consequence of Israel's pursuit of terrorists who use their own people as human shields. Every Israeli civilian killed or injured was the victim of a terrorist attack intended to harm civilians. That alone ought to wash away any blood-stained suggestion of moral equivalency.

No I don't intend on reading the article. I believe in the garbage in, garbage out theory. It's like the saying 'you are what you eat'. If I eat to much of your hateful garbage, I'll start hating also.

There may not be as many propogandistic images coming from Israel because there aren't as many casualties. Duh. Than the article tries to portray the Lebanese as less human and less caring for their people. Then the article calls Israel's enemies terrorists in order to demonize them when Israel wrote the book on terrorism. Try reading some history of how Israel was established.
The democratically elected government of Israel is invading the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF LEBANON. Who has caused the most deaths and destruction and has the most blood on their hands? Israel. I'm not overly impressed with either side but to pretend Israel is innocent, is a farce.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

No I don't intend on reading the article. I believe in the garbage in, garbage out theory. It's like the saying 'you are what you eat'. If I eat to much of your hateful garbage, I'll start hating also.

There may not be as many propogandistic images coming from Israel because there aren't as many casualties. Duh. Than the article tries to portray the Lebanese as less human and less caring for their people. Then the article calls Israel's enemies terrorists in order to demonize them when Israel wrote the book on terrorism. Try reading some history of how Israel was established.
The democratically elected government of Israel is invading the DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED GOVERNMENT OF LEBANON. Who has caused the most deaths and destruction and has the most blood on their hands? Israel. I'm not overly impressed with either side but to pretend Israel is innocent, is a farce.

You didn't read the article so you have no idea what it said. Just from the snippet I gave it is easily understood he is talking about Hezbollah and no the Lebonese. Unless you are equating Hezbollah = Lebonese. Which is wrong. You'd be missing quite a few.

BTW: A challenge. Please show me 10 photos of propoganda of dead civilians, like the ones from Lebenon that have been shown on the media such as Reuter, AP, CNN, BBC etc..........

You can't because the Israelis don't allow it. They don't celebrate the death of their people like the death-cult Hezbollah.

160 dead and 480 injured so far. Find me the pictures that shows the Israelis parading their dead and injured in front of cameras.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by HOZ

You can't because the Israelis don't allow it.

.

That right there, shows how democratic the Israeli's are. They control the media, hardly what I'd call a democracy whereas the Lebanese allow reporters to see the carnage. I hardly think they are enjoying this. Keep digging Hoz, you're getting warmer the deeper you go or are you just entering your own little hell.

edited to add that rightly or not the Lebanese now back the Hezbollah, even the Christians, so now Hezbollah= Lebanese.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

That right there, shows how democratic the Israeli's are. They control the media, hardly what I'd call a democracy whereas the Lebanese allow reporters to see the carnage. I hardly think they are enjoying this. Keep digging Hoz, you're getting warmer the deeper you go or are you just entering your own little hell.

edited to add that rightly or not the Lebanese now back the Hezbollah, even the Christians, so now Hezbollah= Lebanese.

Now the Israelis are controlling the media and Hezbollah is alll about freedom of the press?

Okey Dokey....I see we are now using the Lanny debate tactics. When all else fails deny the facts and make up things.

I will make it easier for you. Since you said there was SO much propoganda coming from Israel...why don't you give some evidence.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by White Doors

I do see a freely democtatic state defending it's free citizens from a dealth cult as pretty 'black and white' as you say, yes.

what is the problem with that?

Nothing. It's called logical thinking and understanding of the people that want to kill you.

Strange, how all this started with the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers? Defending their people from a death cult? Seems like Israel simply used the incident as an excuse to run roughshod through Lebanon to get rid of Hezbollah once and for all.

Glad you did start talking about Israel having the right to defend "herself".

I originally stated that the IDF was doing Hezbollah's job for it by creating all these civilian casualties; that there was clearly a disproportionate use of force from the IDF...Hell, more children have died than combatants on BOTH sides...

Maybe you don't see a problem with that WD, but I certainly do.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by HOZ

I will make it easier for you. Since you said there was SO much propoganda coming from Israel...why don't you give some evidence.

There are degrees of propaganda...disproportionate coverage on the backstory of Israel citizens; glossing over Lebanese civilian casualties; parroting of Israeli justifications/rationalizations...

I'd recommend the google video Peace, Lies and Propaganda to see how the american media skews the truth, but I doubt you'd even watch it

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

Strange, how all this started with the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers? Defending their people from a death cult? Seems like Israel simply used the incident as an excuse to run roughshod through Lebanon to get rid of Hezbollah once and for all.

Glad you did start talking about Israel having the right to defend "herself".

I originally stated that the IDF was doing Hezbollah's job for it by creating all these civilian casualties; that there was clearly a disproportionate use of force from the IDF...Hell, more children have died than combatants on BOTH sides...

Maybe you don't see a problem with that WD, but I certainly do.

Civilian casualties are a part of War. Israel has taken many steps to minimize them as illustrated by their commando raid on Tyre to get the rocket launchers in an aprtment building instead of just leveling it. I seem to recall them dropping leaflets 48 hours ahead of any air strikes warning the citizens that they were going to be striking there. Hardly a good tactic to warn one's enemy of your future military moves is it? Wonder why they did that then? Oh, that's right - Israel isn't a death-cult!

[White Doors]

[quote=oldschoolcalgary]There are degrees of propaganda...disproportionate coverage on the backstory of Israel citizens; glossing over Lebanese civilian casualties; parroting of Israeli justifications/rationalizations...

Unbelieveable! The Lebanese casualties are being maximized to brain-wash gullible westerners like yourself. You apparently are an easy target.

[oldschoolcalgary]

[quote=White Doors]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

There are degrees of propaganda...disproportionate coverage on the backstory of Israel citizens; glossing over Lebanese civilian casualties; parroting of Israeli justifications/rationalizations...

Unbelieveable! The Lebanese casualties are being maximized to brain-wash gullible westerners like yourself. You apparently are an easy target.

OK, who is the conspriracy theorist here?

You show me a casualty from a reputable source then; I prefer the NYTimes, but realize most conservatives have decided that particular outlet is under "liberal" control.

Me? an easy target?

Well, since you are getting personal, it seems to me that you've swallowed the entire Israel position Hook, Line and Sinker...You probably think every civilian killed was a Hezbollah member; that Israel hasn't/isn't in violation of many UN Sanctions; that this action is all about Israel having the right to defend "herself".

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

My initial point was about resolution 1559, drafted and agreed upon in September of 2004. For 2 freakin' years, the UN did 'nothing' to enforce it. And you wonder why so many of us fail to see the use of a organization that cannot enforce its own laws.

I'm certainly aware of the fact that many on this board don't know how the UN works, and continue to slander it in ways that are incorrect. The UN acted within their mandate in Lebanon... the mandate was weak. Is that the UN soldiers fault? UN bureaucracy? I'd suggest (knowing a little about the UN) that it was (as I've told you 4 times) the member-states fault. You got a problem with the way the UN does its job? Write a letter to the P5 countries, don't just rail about how the 'UN is failed'.

You also clearly (despite my posting this before) don't have a clue what the scope of the UN is. Security is like 5% of its mandate. Get yourself educated on it if you're going to constantly bring it up.

www.un.org

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'm certainly aware of the fact that many on this board don't know how the UN works, and continue to slander it in ways that are incorrect. The UN acted within their mandate in Lebanon... the mandate was weak. Is that the UN soldiers fault? UN bureaucracy? I'd suggest (knowing a little about the UN) that it was (as I've told you 4 times) the member-states fault. You got a problem with the way the UN does its job? Write a letter to the P5 countries, don't just rail about how the 'UN is failed'.

You also clearly (despite my posting this before) don't have a clue what the scope of the UN is. Security is like 5% of its mandate. Get yourself educated on it if you're going to constantly bring it up.

www.un.org

The UN did fail in enforcing their own resolution. Whether you call the UN its member states, the fact still remains they failed. Now they have to deal with the after-effects of a resolution they never sought to enforce.

You're so frickin' literal at times, that you forget what the original point was. Admit it, the UN(and its member states) failed to enforce resolution 1559, thus resulting in the war between Israel/Hezbollah.

Sheesh.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

You're so frickin' literal at times, that you forget what the original point was. Admit it, the UN(and its member states) failed to enforce resolution 1559, thus resulting in the war between Israel/Hezbollah.

Sheesh.

If you think the current fighting is tied to the lack of enforcement of a UN resolution, your scope of the situation is way too limited. There have been dozens of resolutions that both sides have ignored for decades. To blame the UN because Israel and Hezbollah won't stop fighting is... wrong. In my opinion, of course. Rather than look 2 years ago to the UN for a source to the fighting, why not look over the past 50 years at events in the region (ie, the actual source of the conflict).

The UN doesn't make peace, it keeps peace. If one or both sides wish to keep fighting, there's nothing the UN can do (or was meant to do). It isn't global-cop, you can't just whistle it in on the bad guys and expect ass-kicking to happen. Maybe if you'd visit their website and see what some of their missions were about, you'd get why they aren't at all the right body to enforce a peace in the area (and never were). Just because it isn't what you want it to be doesn't mean its 'failed'.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

The UN did fail in enforcing their own resolution. Whether you call the UN its member states, the fact still remains they failed. Now they have to deal with the after-effects of a resolution they never sought to enforce.

Well, here is the resolution you're fond of quoting.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/G...df?OpenElement

Upon reading it, there is no 'enforceable' aspect of it. It does not provide for any specific consequences to be executed by the UN or anyone else. It 'calls upon all remaining forces to withdraw from Lebanon' and 'calls for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese Militias'. So... if they don't disarm... what is the UN supposed to do? Start busting down doors? Military action of any kind is not stipulated in this resolution.

I can't believe you're accusing the UN of failing to enforce a non-eforceable resolution. Talk about obfuscation...

And while we're educating you, take a look at this UNIFIL fact sheet... I think its a pretty good look at the mission over the last few decades.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/mission.../factsheet.pdf

It appears that UNIFIL knew it couldn't fulfill its mandate, and was telling everyone around that the situtation was too tense for peacekeeping. Another failure of the UN though, I guess.

[Azure]

If you think the current fighting is tied to the lack of enforcement of a UN resolution, your scope of the situation is way too limited. There have been dozens of resolutions that both sides have ignored for decades. To blame the UN because Israel and Hezbollah won't stop fighting is... wrong. In my opinion, of course. Rather than look 2 years ago to the UN for a source to the fighting, why not look over the past 50 years at events in the region (ie, the actual source of the conflict).

Your same scope is limited if you believe that the UN, by not acting to enforce its own resolution, did nothing to help along the current situation.

It doesn't help to look upon history, see that the conflict does indeed go back a few decades, and then ignore the solution available(a UN peacekeeping force) by using the attitude, "well the conflict stems back 50 years, so theres nothing we can do about it."

The UN doesn't make peace, it keeps peace. If one or both sides wish to keep fighting, there's nothing the UN can do (or was meant to do). It isn't global-cop, you can't just whistle it in on the bad guys and expect ass-kicking to happen. Maybe if you'd visit their website and see what some of their missions were about, you'd get why they aren't at all the right body to enforce a peace in the area (and never were). Just because it isn't what you want it to be doesn't mean its 'failed'.

Maybe the UN should write up resolutions based on the idea of using military force 'if needed' when they in fact know it will never happen.

There was peace until the two Israeli soldiers were kidnapped, wouldn't you say the UN could have kept the peace by getting involved militarily?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Well, here is the resolution you're fond of quoting.

http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/G...df?OpenElement

Upon reading it, there is no 'enforceable' aspect of it. It does not provide for any specific consequences to be executed by the UN or anyone else. It 'calls upon all remaining forces to withdraw from Lebanon' and 'calls for the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese Militias'. So... if they don't disarm... what is the UN supposed to do? Start busting down doors? Military action of any kind is not stipulated in this resolution.

I can't believe you're accusing the UN of failing to enforce a non-eforceable resolution. Talk about obfuscation...

And while we're educating you, take a look at this UNIFIL fact sheet... I think its a pretty good look at the mission over the last few decades.

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpko/mission.../factsheet.pdf

It appears that UNIFIL knew it couldn't fulfill its mandate, and was telling everyone around that the situtation was too tense for peacekeeping. Another failure of the UN though, I guess.

Slowly but surely you're admitting at the UN is incapable of doing what is was made to do. Military wise.

First you defend the actions of UNIFIL, now you admit that they "knew" it was impossible to fulfill its mandate. Why make a mandate, when you can't fulfill it?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Slowly but surely you're admitting at the UN is incapable of doing what is was made to do. Military wise.

First you defend the actions of UNIFIL, now you admit that they "knew" it was impossible to fulfill its mandate. Why make a mandate, when you can't fulfill it?

Hilarious! You blatantly misrepresent the enforcability of a resolution you brought up, and when called on it... ignore it!

The UN is only incapable in what you specifically seem to think its supposed to do. It wasn't created to be a global cop. It was created to be an international diplomatic forum on an extremely broad variety of issues, of which you know little about. Thats why I keep having to condescend to you and post their website, though I know you clearly have no interest in learning anything. Your perception of what it is supposed to be is... not accurate. It tries to help, when it falls short due to lack of support or lack of peace to enforce, you stomp on it. Real nice.

www.un.org

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Upon reading it, there is no 'enforceable' aspect of it. It does not provide for any specific consequences to be executed by the UN or anyone else.

So, essentially you're saying that the UN is useless?

If it orders something, but doesn't put consequences behind non-compliance, then who cares what it ordered? Is that what you're saying?

The fact that numerous countries all agreed that it needs to happen means nothing, apparently....

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by calculoso

So, essentially you're saying that the UN is useless?

If it orders something, but doesn't put consequences behind non-compliance, then who cares what it ordered? Is that what you're saying?

The fact that numerous countries all agreed that it needs to happen means nothing, apparently....

Ever wonder why the UN is useless? Couldn't have anything to do with the Americans doing what ever they want, when ever they want? Couldn't have anything to do with the fact that any time a Security Council resolution is tabled that could have a positive impact it gets killed or vetoed? As long as one country is allowed to trapse around the globe and enforce its will upon other soverign nations, while continually protecting Israel at every turn, the UN will remain an ineffective tool.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Since you said there was SO much propoganda coming from Israel...why don't you give some evidence.

Seems the onus is on you to prove that Israel doesn't produce propaganda (now I'm using HOZ debate tactics). Come on jerkoff, I'm sure you have some game tapes lying around that can prove this!