Israel and Lebanon now fighting

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Saint Troy

I've been watching this story deteriorate for the last few days. I must say I find it interesting that Israel is now choosing to "defend themselves" more aggressively with a huge U.S presence in the persian gulf and increased US/Iran sabre rattling over uranium enrichment. I agree with Lanny in that this is exactly what the Islamic fundamentalists want, another crusade to defend.

This is nothing more than the same we've had since 1949. It's just a flash in the pan compared to what Israel usually does every few years. If anything, the U.S. presence in the middle east makes it more dangerous for Isreal since a key ally is distracted and it incites greater Arab militancy.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Well to be honest, I agree. The ultra-competitive mantra of the neo-cons gets frustrating at times. Don't get me wrong, our self interest and competition make the world go round, but I like to think as Rousseau did, that we all have strong secondary compassion for our fellow humans.

Neo-cons... hmm, they get a bad rap though. Same with social conservatives. It just happens their loudest followers happen to be the ones that least follow the social/neo line of thought.

When it boils down to it, real neo-cons are just talking about values and how the welfare state has degraded them. But yeah, this whole attitude of don't trust your neighbour, stab him in teh back is counter productive.
John Locke must roll around in his grave everytime a Bush budget comes out.

Umm, Conservatives are technically supposed to be to the right of Neo Cons. Neo Cons are disenchanted or realist liberals. The application of the term to the latest Bush Administration is an erronous one that's been popularized. Neo Cons were originally liberals who saw the benefits of the welfare state and big government but were steadfastly against the threat of the Soviets and so embarked on more aggressive foreign policy. It's been misused in recent years and the term lacks any real definition anymore.

[HelloHockeyFans]

Aiport runways in Lebanon have been taken out.

Backup gasoline supplies have been taken out now.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

Umm, Conservatives are technically supposed to be to the right of Neo Cons. Neo Cons are disenchanted or realist liberals. The application of the term to the latest Bush Administration is an erronous one that's been popularized. Neo Cons were originally liberals who saw the benefits of the welfare state and big government but were steadfastly against the threat of the Soviets and so embarked on more aggressive foreign policy. It's been misused in recent years and the term lacks any real definition anymore.

Lanny is misinformed on his concepts regarding conservatives and neo-conservatives.

Not really. Alot of conservatives are disenchanted liberals too. Besides, trying to define anything by the left-right 2d political spectrum is fruitless.

But yeah, your definition is pretty much correct and sort of what I was trying to say.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by peter12

Not really. Alot of conservatives are disenchanted liberals too. Besides, trying to define anything by the left-right 2d political spectrum is fruitless.

But yeah, your definition is pretty much correct and sort of what I was trying to say.

That's the academic defintion of neo-conservatism. It irks me when people think they are ultra-fanatical rightwingers or something. Regardless of where people lie on the spectrum, I was just pointing out that Lanny misinformed on his concepts regarding conservatives and neo-conservatives or to the uniformity of feeling of the Arab nations. They are actually very much mistrustful of each other and there are plenty of steadfast enemies and varying ideologies and opinions between them. They'll agree on OPEC and what makes them money but they would be properly able to be in perfect consensus war, they never have been capable of that, even in the Arab/Israeli conflicts of the past.

If the Arab nations pull together - they still won't be able to accomplish much of anything. Israel has absolute first strike capability against any Arab state. The militant Islamists actually have a better chance fighting an all-out guerilla/insurgency/siege mentality war like they are doing now.

[peter12]

But you can still technically group them on the "right" as it were. Any centre of right should be defined by an opposition to the welfare state. Except for social conservatives, sort of, I mean they don't like taxes but want the government to legislate within the family.

Although that gets complicated when you compare it to their opposites on the left.

[Caramel]

Israel and George Bush makes me sick to my stomach. They are the major reasons for all this trouble right now.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Caramel

Israel and George Bush makes me sick to my stomach. They are the major reasons for all this trouble right now.

Hooray for stupid opinions!
If you were a sovereign and legitimate state and 3 of your soldiers were kidnapped with a few weeks what would you be doing right now?

[Caramel]

Originally Posted by peter12

Hooray for stupid opinions!
If you were a sovereign and legitimate state and 3 of your soldiers were kidnapped with a few weeks what would you be doing right now?

Only thing stupid is people suppourting Isael, there is a reason people are mad at them. America needs to butt out of other peoples problems, and clean up there own country.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Caramel

Only thing stupid is people suppourting Isael, there is a reason people are mad at them. America needs to butt out of other peoples problems, and clean up there own country.

Too bad this thing doesn't have spell and grammar check, hey?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

If you werent such a prick you might be a nice guy. Doubtful though...

heres the original post...
Originally Posted by CNN
JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet authorized "severe and harsh" retaliation on Lebanon after Hezbollah guerillas kidnapped two soldiers and killed three others in a cross-border raid Wednesday.

Israel quickly blamed the Lebanese government for the raid -- and charged it with the soldiers' safe release -- and the Israel Defense Forces began hammering Lebanon with artillery and airstrikes hours before the Cabinet met to discuss a response.
Israel called Wednesday's abductions an act of war, and Maj. Gen. Udi Adam, head of Israel's Northern Command, said he has "comprehensive plans" to battle Hezbollah throughout Lebanon, not just in its southern stronghold.


I suggest that one of the reasons it might have happened is a theistic issue and you have a problem with it?

My first comment was
Fundamentalists killing Fundamentalists....
Boil Boil Toil and trouble......

and you had a problem with that too...which seems to be just about anything i say. I dont have to justify anything to you simply because YOU demand it. But once again...if you are so blind keep digging your hole deeper...your head is obviously so big you need a hole large enough to bury it.
I dont see any answers you have that are better than mine...or any of the other posters for that matter. You simply attack those with a differing viewpoint.

Your comment...
Yes underlying cause of the problems is religion, but the fact of the matter is that the environment that these problems thive in was created through political dealings and decisions.

My comment was...
I guess we will see in the next few years what really happens in the Middle East....whether its straight political or theist/political is a fine line in that area. I dont ignore the FACT that the vast majority of issues in the middle east have a theistic base to them. That includes almost everything done by Israel or its neighbors. To not see that is being blind.


Seems like you admit the problem yet deny its existence. Political leaders are religiously influenced in the middle east...THAT is the fact of that region, and that was the point I made.

BTW...
Hezbollah = Militant Islamic resistance movement; it does not recognize Israel's right to exist.
"Party of God" - Pro-Iranian Shi'ite party that is strong in Lebanon and has fought the Israeli army in Lebanon for many years.

Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion.

Once again Cheese either misses the point people don't like what he says, OR he realizes people are once again calling him on his crap and he tries to get out of it.

My problem with your point was that you equated The Israeli government with fundamentalist groups like Hamas and Hezbolla. I never said that religion doesn't cause these rifts, as clearly it does. I agree that Religion is the major reson these problems get so out of hand, and I think that the whole situation was caused by political decions made way back in the 40s.

That being said, you've totally ignored (ONCE AGAIN) the reason I called you out.
Becasue you used out of context religions claptrap to try to backup your point that religion is stupid. I have no problem with you stating the obvious in that there are definatley religions undertones to EVERYTHING that happens in the middle east. But equating the Israeli government to terrorist groups is where I disagree.

Please explain why it is that you think AMERICAN CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS, are rellevent to your explination of why you think the Israeli government is the moral equivalent of Hezbollah (as implied in your Fundamentalist vs Fundamentalist quip).

Then once you are done with explaining that connection I'll gladly debate my position that the Isreali government is justified in these actions, religon is really irrelevant in that arguement, becasue I see it as a matter of scale and justification rather than the underlying cause.

[Cube Inmate]

You can't negotiate with irrational, illogical people.

It seems clear that neither Hamas nor Hezbollah are willing to use civilized means to have their grievances addressed. In fact, it's become apparent that their supposed "grievances" about the occupied territories are nothing more than a front...when offered sovereign governance over 95%+ of the West Bank and Gaza, they refused. They didn't want to lose their excuse to attempt to wipe out Israel. There's no logic there...only pure anger and blood lust.

Similar arguments could be made about Israel. Blowing up Beirut's runways in response to the kidnapping of soldiers by "rogue" elements may be a disproportionate response. Kind of like me launching a molotov cocktail at my neighbour's house after being stung by a hornet because he didn't deal with the huge nest built under his deck. Obviously I'd be stupid to ignore the problem, but a rational person might look for better ways to solve it.

You want to argue which party is at fault? Go ahead. Personally, I don't give a rat's ass which party is *MORE* irrational in this case. The unfortunate fact is that there's going to be no negotiated settlement here because one or more of the parties is nuts. Therefore, if they're so committed to blowing each other up, I wish they'd just get the hell on with it and finish this once and for all.

[Cube Inmate]

It's obviously a really strong argument when you can substitute exactly the opposite of what was said, and have the same strength of argument:

Originally Posted by Anti-Caramel

Only thing stupid is people suppourting the Palestinians, there is a reason people are mad at them. Iran/Lebanon needs to butt out of other peoples problems, and clean up there own country.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Once again Cheese either misses the point people don't like what he says, OR he realizes people are once again calling him on his crap and he tries to get out of it.

My problem with your point was that you equated The Israeli government with fundamentalist groups like Hamas and Hezbolla. I never said that religion doesn't cause these rifts, as clearly it does. I agree that Religion is the major reson these problems get so out of hand, and I think that the whole situation was caused by political decions made way back in the 40s.

That being said, you've totally ignored (ONCE AGAIN) the reason I called you out.
Becasue you used out of context religions claptrap to try to backup your point that religion is stupid. I have no problem with you stating the obvious in that there are definatley religions undertones to EVERYTHING that happens in the middle east. But equating the Israeli government to terrorist groups is where I disagree.

Please explain why it is that you think AMERICAN CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS, are rellevent to your explination of why you think the Israeli government is the moral equivalent of Hezbollah (as implied in your Fundamentalist vs Fundamentalist quip).

Then once you are done with explaining that connection I'll gladly debate my position that the Isreali government is justified in these actions, religon is really irrelevant in that arguement, becasue I see it as a matter of scale and justification rather than the underlying cause.

well now Shantzy...dont you sound all goody goody attacking me again....
Once again...read what I copied....I mean read it ...if thats possible.

Here so you dont have to scroll back and hurt your little finger.....

What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.


Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.


Now here is something else for you to read....

Christian Zionism is the belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy, and is a necessary precondition for the return of Jesus to reign on Earth. This belief is commonly though not exclusively associated with evangelical Protestants in the United States.

So lets see...in my LAST post I had this...

Hezbollah = Militant Islamic resistance movement; it does not recognize Israel's right to exist.
"Party of God" - Pro-Iranian Shi'ite party that is strong in Lebanon and has fought the Israeli army in Lebanon for many years.

Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion.

and finally once again...

Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God.


Figure it out yet...cuz if not I dont think I have a hammer big enough to get it through to you.

[Cube Inmate]

You've posted it twice now Cheese, so I need to ask:

"Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion."

What do you mean by that? I assume you are referring to a specific context, since it's obviously not true worldwide.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

You've posted it twice now Cheese, so I need to ask:

"Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion."

What do you mean by that? I assume you are referring to a specific context, since it's obviously not true worldwide.

No not worldwide at all.... and should have read...Israel is the state created by the Jewish people...for the Jewish people. (Judaism and Jewish beliefs are the same theistically)...in a tongue tied fashion.

Jews have regarded the Land of Israel as their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised land.
The land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples, as well as the rites concerning those temples. Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for more than a millennium.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Cheese

well now Shantzy...dont you sound all goody goody attacking me again....
Once again...read what I copied....I mean read it ...if thats possible.

Here so you dont have to scroll back and hurt your little finger.....

What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.


Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.


Now here is something else for you to read....

Christian Zionism is the belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy, and is a necessary precondition for the return of Jesus to reign on Earth. This belief is commonly though not exclusively associated with evangelical Protestants in the United States.

So lets see...in my LAST post I had this...

Hezbollah = Militant Islamic resistance movement; it does not recognize Israel's right to exist.
"Party of God" - Pro-Iranian Shi'ite party that is strong in Lebanon and has fought the Israeli army in Lebanon for many years.

Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion.

and finally once again...

Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God.


Figure it out yet...cuz if not I dont think I have a hammer big enough to get it through to you.

Wow, care to tell me what a Christian doctorine has to do with Israels motives in this conflict?

Yes CHRISTIAN ZIONISTS beleive that everything Israle does is orchestrated by God, they also believe that when Jesus comes back (something that I doubt many Jews think will happen), that most jews will convert and pracitce their own form of pseudo-jewish chrisianity (something that I also doubt that many jews believe). So why is that relevant?

Hey, did you know that there are groups in Iran that think that Israel has no right to exist? They're not Jewish either, so by your logic, I guess that means that all the Jews in the Israeli government, and army must share that belief eh? What some christian sect beleives has ABSOLUTELY NO RELEVANCE in a Jewish nation's agenda. But good try.

As to defining Hezbollah and the Party of God, that's great, I'm pretty sure everyone knows that there is more than one Islamic front that doesn't exactly like the idea of a Jewish state, and that's the problem, I've never said it wasn't.

As for Israel being the only state being named after a religion, that's super.
Did you know I'm the only person on CP with a reference to Jeff Shantz in my handle?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Jewish state of Israel is the only state named after a religion.

Israel is the biblical name given to Jacob by G-d in the book of Genesis after he wrestles with the angel. Hence the "Children of Israel" as Jews are referred to throughout the Bible.

The land is referred to in two ways - Eretz Canaan - Land of Canan - and Eretz Yisrael - Land of Israel, the Israel refering to Jacob's spritiual name. The whole biblical hebrew thing can get to be a bit confusing.

Jewish (the religionous name) is the english form of "Yehudi" or "Person from "Yehudah"- Judea, the area encompasing the southern half of Israel where the Tribes of Judah and Benjamin settled.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

No not worldwide at all.... and should have read...Israel is the state created by the Jewish people...for the Jewish people. (Judaism and Jewish beliefs are the same theistically)...in a tongue tied fashion.

Jews have regarded the Land of Israel as their homeland, both as a Holy Land and as a Promised land.
The land of Israel holds a special place in Jewish religious obligations, encompassing Judaism's most important sites — including the remains of the First and Second Temples, as well as the rites concerning those temples. Starting around 1200 BCE, a series of Jewish kingdoms and states existed intermittently in the region for more than a millennium.

You do realize that Israel is not strictly a Jewish land, and that many other kinds of people live there...

[Regorium]

My hatred for the USA grows daily.

This is seriously all about the oil. They know that Lebanon is backed by Syria and Iran (although very cautiously). They just want to provoke action from these two countries, then they have an excuse to seize control of Iranian oilfields through military force.

Exactly what they did to Iraq.

**** the USA.