Monument to Vietnam deserters draws fire

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by HOZ@Sep 26 2004, 07:05 AM

Nobody has defended it. It amazes me that you cannot comprehend simple English.

Sure they did.

If a person says that a draft dodger was wrong for avoiding the draft, by default they are supporting (ie defending) the system that was used to draft them. Is that so difficult to understand?

[Table 5]

Originally posted by CaptainCrunch@Sep 25 2004, 07:01 PM
He didn't fight out of Canada smoke dope and look at the guy next to him and say "Man the war is like wrong, can I borrow your pipe."

can you please tell me why all draft dodgers were pot smokers?

[Captain Sensible]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 26 2004, 04:01 AM
Especially one who risked their life, but not limited to one.

How would you feel about an Iraqi person who refused to take part in the invasion of Kuwait, and instead someone else was sent? How about a French person who refused to go to Vietnam, or a Russian person who refused to go to Afghanistan? Should we respect them for their decisions?

hmmmm, no one's touched this one yet.

I'd like to hear people's responses.......

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction@Sep 26 2004, 04:01 AM
Especially one who risked their life, but not limited to one.

How would you feel about an Iraqi person who refused to take part in the invasion of Kuwait, and instead someone else was sent? How about a French person who refused to go to Vietnam, or a Russian person who refused to go to Afghanistan? Should we respect them for their decisions?

Ok I will bite. I have no problem with people refusing to go, but I have a problem with people who RAN AWAY. Were they making a noble stand no.

Those people who refused to go if they just ran away were cowards, not heros. They didn't make a noble stand against an unjust war. They crossed the border.

If the Iraqi man decided to run to another country he is a coward. Same thing goes for the Frenchman, and the Russian. Making a stand makes you respectable. Running away does nothing but make you a coward.

[Captain Sensible]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard+Sep 26 2004, 04:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Mean Mr. Mustard @ Sep 26 2004, 04:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-FlamesAddiction@Sep 26 2004, 04:01 AM
Especially one who risked their life, but not limited to one.

How would you feel about an Iraqi person who refused to take part in the invasion of Kuwait, and instead someone else was sent? How about a French person who refused to go to Vietnam, or a Russian person who refused to go to Afghanistan? Should we respect them for their decisions?

Ok I will bite. I have no problem with people refusing to go, but I have a problem with people who RAN AWAY. Were they making a noble stand no.

Those people who refused to go if they just ran away were cowards, not heros. They didn't make a noble stand against an unjust war. They crossed the border.

If the Iraqi man decided to run to another country he is a coward. Same thing goes for the Frenchman, and the Russian. Making a stand makes you respectable. Running away does nothing but make you a coward. [/b][/quote]
So are the Palestinian suicide bombers respectable? They are certainly making a stand. What about those Palestinians who say no to blowing themselves up? Are they cowards?

I am not trying to be a jerk and I am not trying to start an argument, just trying to make the point that it's near impossible to just lump people into right and wrong, heros and cowards, good and evil, aggressor and victim, etc.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

I think what they are doing is a huge difference and the manner in how they do it. They are intentionally targetting civilians and it is an insult to every single member of any armed forces to consider them on the same playing field as soldiers. There is a huge difference in the actions which they were called on to do. A suicide bomber while they are making a stand are doing so in a manner which is cowardly.

There were people that ran away from signing up from WWII I would think. Should we build a monument for them. Should they be considered heros.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 04:25 PM

There were people that ran away from signing up from WWII I would think. Should we build a monument for them. Should they be considered heros.

Are we talking about people on both sides of the conflict? It's totally different if you are under attack and you refuse to fight.

How do you feel about people from Eastern Europe, South-East Asia, and Africa who left their countries and came to Canada to escape having to fight a war? Are they all cowards too?

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Sep 26 2004, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Sep 26 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 04:25 PM

There were people that ran away from signing up from WWII I would think. Should we build a monument for them. Should they be considered heros.

Are we talking about people on both sides of the conflict? It's totally different if you are under attack and you refuse to fight.

How do you feel about people from Eastern Europe, South-East Asia, and Africa who left their countries and came to Canada to escape having to fight a war? Are they all cowards too? [/b][/quote]
How was Canada under attack. Come on these people are as much heros as you or I and that is to say that they are not heroes in the least. Tell me what could they have done which they would be considered heroes. They ran away... If that is some kind of political protest then all the power to them, the facts of the matter was they were not standing up for these beliefs (if they were they would go to prison or whatever and say damn straight, I am not going to Vietnam). Instead they ran away.

Is the Quebecer (how does someone actually spell that) who refused to fight in world war II a hero.

[peter12]

[B]I think what they are doing is a huge difference and the manner in how they do it. They are intentionally targetting civilians and it is an insult to every single member of any armed forces to consider them on the same playing field as soldiers.[B]

You have heard of the My Lai massacre???

[Cowperson]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Sep 26 2004, 04:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Sep 26 2004, 04:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 04:25 PM

There were people that ran away from signing up from WWII I would think. Should we build a monument for them. Should they be considered heros.

Are we talking about people on both sides of the conflict? It's totally different if you are under attack and you refuse to fight.

How do you feel about people from Eastern Europe, South-East Asia, and Africa who left their countries and came to Canada to escape having to fight a war? Are they all cowards too? [/b][/quote]
Bringing deserters from World War II into this is valid.

It demonstrates that both "good" wars and "bad" wars bring out a certain element who refuse to fight, making the issue of whether the conflict is proper or not somewhat moot to the question.

There is no monument to American deserters or concientious objectors in World War II.

Are we talking about people on both sides of the conflict? It's totally different if you are under attack and you refuse to fight.

Germany didn't attack Britain or France in the opening days of the war. Yet those two countries reacted as if Polish soil was their own, as they had warned Germany they would beforehand. Germany didn't attack America either but the USA jumped in after Pearl Harbour. Would it have been alright if an American had said he objected to fighting Germany but was okay with going to war in the South Pacific?

Similarly, the Soviets/China and the USA engaged in many proxy wars during the Cold War, Vietnam and Afghanistan being only two examples.

How do you feel about people from Eastern Europe, South-East Asia, and Africa who left their countries and came to Canada to escape having to fight a war? Are they all cowards too?

Were they drafted by a recognizable government for the purpose of serving their country?

Cowperson

[peter12]

Germany didn't attack Britain or France in the opening days of the war. Yet those two countries reacted as if Polish soil was their own, as they had warned Germany they would beforehand.

They sure didn't act that way when Hitler amalgamated Austria and Czechoslovakia.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by peter12@Sep 26 2004, 05:29 PM
[b] [B]I think what they are doing is a huge difference and the manner in how they do it. They are intentionally targetting civilians and it is an insult to every single member of any armed forces to consider them on the same playing field as soldiers.

You have heard of the My Lai massacre???

I knew this was going to come up.

The attacking of civilians wasn't a modus operenta of the United States army in the field in Vietnam. It was the act of soldiers in the field, and not supported by the Army who court marshalled them.

The Palestines who strap bombs to thier chest and run into buses, malls etc are being told by thier leaders to kill as many woman and children as possible.

This comparison between the U.S. Army and Palestine terrorists is ignorant and uninformed

One intentionally kills woman and children.

The other doesn't, and dosen't have orders to do so.

Court Transcripts My Lai

Its like the peace movement that decided to label every single U.S. soldier as a baby killer, or mass murderer. It was an argument based out of ignorance.

When I came home from Cyprus I was riding home on the C-Train in uniform. I was happy to be home, and looking forward to a few days off. And I had this middle aged semi drunken woman in a fur coat staring at me. Then she goes into a tirad about how I and everyone else in uniform was a babykiller and rapist, and even explaining to her that I was coming home from peacekeeping didn't do any good. The thing I noticed was that a lot of people on the train in her age group and younger were nodding and agreeing with her. Nodding and agreeing with a drunk woman, I couldn't believe it.I couldn't argue with her without disgracing my uniform.

Is there a moral to this story, not really, except that I've found that people on the other side of the political scale from me can be every bit as stupid, ignorant and closed minded as my side.

[peter12]

I realize that, I was just bringing it up for a bit of discussion. Though the actions at My Lai were condoned by a Captain. Interestingly enough, I have read that document you linked before.

The coverup itself actually supports my arguement a bit. It certainly was a mode of operation for the US Army, but it certainly wasn't exposed nearly as much as it should have been.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 26 2004, 05:38 PM
Bringing deserters from World War II into this is valid.

A deserter and dodger are 2 completely different things. In fact, the U.S. has pardoned all draft dodgers, however derserters are still banned from entering the U.S.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Cowperson@Sep 26 2004, 05:38 PM
Germany didn't attack Britain or France in the opening days of the war. Yet those two countries reacted as if Polish soil was their own, as they had warned Germany they would beforehand. Germany didn't attack America either but the USA jumped in after Pearl Harbour. Would it have been alright if an American had said he objected to fighting Germany but was okay with going to war in the South Pacific?

Germany may not have attacked Britain, but Britain was under imminent threat. Canada, as part of the British Empire was obligated to join Britain.

[peter12]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Sep 26 2004, 11:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Sep 26 2004, 11:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Cowperson@Sep 26 2004, 05:38 PM
Germany didn't attack Britain or France in the opening days of the war. Yet those two countries reacted as if Polish soil was their own, as they had warned Germany they would beforehand. Germany didn't attack America either but the USA jumped in after Pearl Harbour. Would it have been alright if an American had said he objected to fighting Germany but was okay with going to war in the South Pacific?

Germany may not have attacked Britain, but Britain was under imminent threat. Canada, as part of the British Empire was obligated to join Britain. [/b][/quote]
Not so in the Second World War, Canada made its own choice to join. Thats why the Canadian declaration of war was about a week after Britains.

In the 1st World War Canada was obligated to join with Britain.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 05:14 PM
Is the Quebecer (how does someone actually spell that) who refused to fight in world war II a hero.

No, and as far as I know, no monument has been made for them.

Let me ask this:

How about those people in the U.S. who used their family's status to legally dodge the draft or get themselves in an area where they would never be under fire? Are they cowards? (heh)

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally posted by peter12+Sep 26 2004, 06:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (peter12 @ Sep 26 2004, 06:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Germany may not have attacked Britain, but Britain was under imminent threat. Canada, as part of the British Empire was obligated to join Britain.

Not so in the Second World War, Canada made its own choice to join. Thats why the Canadian declaration of war was about a week after Britains.

In the 1st World War Canada was obligated to join with Britain. [/b][/quote]
Regardless, they were an ally and Canada was still connected to them colonially in all practicality, if not in name. It wasn't a war of ideology, or a civil war that Canada had no business in.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by peter12@Sep 26 2004, 05:54 PM
I realize that, I was just bringing it up for a bit of discussion. Though the actions at My Lai were condoned by a Captain. Interestingly enough, I have read that document you linked before.

The coverup itself actually supports my arguement a bit. It certainly was a mode of operation for the US Army, but it certainly wasn't exposed nearly as much as it should have been.

You do realize that the LT in this case was nothing more than a platoonleader and was not formulating strategy but was leading troops?

The fact that Calley was imprisoned and not given a medal for the massacre tells me that it was NOT the army's policy to murder villages.

The cover up that you alude to was not to cover up some Col or General officer's putting orders up to kill these people, but because the Military at the time was very PR Concious and felt that ripping this thing open would only hurt the moral of the troops, and the war effort at home.

Please show me any evidence that the common public policy of the U.S. Army was to kill woman and children on the order of somebody higher that a LT or Capt or Colonel.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally posted by FlamesAddiction+Sep 26 2004, 06:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (FlamesAddiction @ Sep 26 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Mean Mr. Mustard@Sep 26 2004, 05:14 PM
Is the Quebecer (how does someone actually spell that) who refused to fight in world war II a hero.

No, and as far as I know, no monument has been made for them.

Let me ask this:

How about those people in the U.S. who used their family's status to legally dodge the draft or get themselves in an area where they would never be under fire? Are they cowards? (heh) [/b][/quote]
In my mind they dodged too, thats why I've never had a huge amount of respect for George W. the Person.

Hey aren't these people who are building the monument kinda obligated to salute George W. on this monumnent?

Wouldn't that be a kick in the butt to have to call your enemy brave and heroic for not going to the War.