Missing link for bird evolution discovered

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

FA...obviously you appear to be an ardent Christian. What proof of these numbers you quote do you have? Are you speaking of your inner circle of friends and Christian associates? Or do you have links and proof to a worldwide change in this direction?

I'm actually not an ardent Christian. In fact, most Christians would find my beliefs to be wrong. I was raised Catholic though and went through all the Catholic school and Sunday school stuff, so I do have some experience with these things. I am also friends with a Catholic priest to this day

I was mainly speaking of my own experiences with Christian familiy members and friends. The Catholic Church does not speak out against science these days, and has been going in that direction for number of years. I only know a couple of Christians (both protestants) that don't believe in evolution. Even the recent popes agreed that teaching evolution is alright.

Im assuming that the vast majority of USA Christians would disagree with your vision as weve seen a pronounced move back to Creationsim in the schools in the US.

The U.S. is actually a bad example. Not only do they represent a very small minority of global Christians, but the sect representation is not what it is globally... That is why I think it is wrong to generalize about Christians based on an American poll. Besides, they don't say how the poll was taken. If they poll people right outside of a church, then they will be getting mostly hardcore people, or people who might feel pressured to answer a certain. Most Christians barely ever go to church.

Another thing to consider is that for many Christians (including my priest friend), evolution is a mechanism for creation, so it's not a clear cut question that a Gallup poll can necessarily ask correctly. It not a "yes or no" question for a lot of people.

There is also a very high number of Christians in Africa and South America..probably a majority...do you think that these Christians believe in your theory?

Poll on Creationism vs Evolution in the USA

I would say that it varies depending on culture, poverty, education, historical events, etc... A lot of western European countries are predominantly Christian, but I seriously doubt we would see similar poll results there.

[Cheese]

You are right on some of the demographics...here are the % of countries who think religion is important in their lives...its easy to see the difference between the western world and the rest...the USA is the one big difference.

England and Western Europe have actually had the largest declining numbers in people who believe (in all religions)....leading one to make some assumptions...

Education and knowledge is largely important in how a person sees religion. The western world probably has a higher level of education and knowledge hence its declining numbers....and belief in the 6000 year theory.

% of people who think religion is important

Country % of adults for whom religion is important
Senegal 97
Indonesia 95
Nigeria 92
India 92
Pakistan 91
Ivory Coast 91
Mali 90
Philippines 88
Bangladesh 88
South Africa 87
Kenya 85
Uganda 85
Ghana 84
Tanzania 83
Angola 80
Guatemala 80
Brazil 77
Honduras 72
Peru 69
Bolivia 66
Turkey 65
Venezuela 61
U.S. 59
Mexico 57
A really big gap appears here!
Argentina 39
Poland 36
Ukraine 35
Uzbekistan 35
Great Britain 33
Canada 30
Slovakia 29
Italy 27
South Korea 25
Vietnam 24
Germany 21
Russia 14
Bulgaria 13
Japan 12
France 11
Czech Republic 11

[Bobblehead]

Wow, Italy and France surprised me.
I thought the Catholic faith was much larger in those countries.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

Wow, Italy and France surprised me.
I thought the Catholic faith was much larger in those countries.

It is but if you've been to Italy it's more about the symbology than relating it to politics. Religion is important to them personally but they couldn't really care if you're religious or into their religious values as long as you're not encroaching on theirs. Europe is much more accepting when it comes to religion.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Cheese

But you think that all species evolved over the last 6000 years or so? plus or minus a grand or two?
In other words scientists have it all wrong when it comes to dating procedures?

Maybe. I never said I believed that, did I?

I'm on your side Cheese, remember that. I just think that God and evolution can go together. If one wants to think of it that way.

[jonesy]

I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. I am a Christian and I believe God created life on this earth. I also believe dinosaurs once roamed the earth and the earth is >>>6000 years old. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see any contradictions there.

As I understand it, the story goes
1. God created the earth and filled it with creatures and stuff
2. Life goes on for untold eons in this state. (Millions of years, who knows)
3. Lucifer rebelled with 1/3 of the angels
4. Angels (now demons) cast to earth, wreak havoc on the inhabitants. Including sons of God mingling with sons of Man (source of giants, Time of Atlantis?)
5. God destroys the earth in pre Adamic flood. (This was global wipeout)
6. Starts over with Adam (6000 years ago)
7. Things go on.....as recounted in OT (sort of bibilcal history from here)
8. Much more localized flood in Noahs time, earth naturally repopulates.
9. God says, I can't keep smiting the earth, I won't do it anymore.

So this allows for:
-age of earth
-God still creative force
-repopulation of species after Noah
-dinosaurs
-common story in ALL cultures of flooding


I admit much of this is taken from looking at peoples studies of some of the root meanings of words from original Greek/Hebrew versions of Torah.
For example, the word for create is used after creating the earth, the words after that are more like, made new, or re-create.
Hence, there is a gap between day 1 of creation and day 2. This could be for untold millennia.
Similar word use for global preAdamic flood being separate from localized Noahic flood.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by jonesy

I have mentioned this before, but it bears repeating. I am a Christian and I believe God created life on this earth. I also believe dinosaurs once roamed the earth and the earth is >>>6000 years old. Maybe I'm naive, but I don't see any contradictions there.

As I understand it, the story goes
1. God created the earth and filled it with creatures and stuff
2. Life goes on for untold eons in this state. (Millions of years, who knows)
3. Lucifer rebelled with 1/3 of the angels
4. Angels (now demons) cast to earth, wreak havoc on the inhabitants. Including sons of God mingling with sons of Man (source of giants, Time of Atlantis?)
5. God destroys the earth in pre Adamic flood. (This was global wipeout)
6. Starts over with Adam (6000 years ago)
7. Things go on.....as recounted in OT (sort of bibilcal history from here)
8. Much more localized flood in Noahs time, earth naturally repopulates.
9. God says, I can't keep smiting the earth, I won't do it anymore.

So this allows for:
-age of earth
-God still creative force
-repopulation of species after Noah
-dinosaurs
-common story in ALL cultures of flooding


I admit much of this is taken from looking at peoples studies of some of the root meanings of words from original Greek/Hebrew versions of Torah.
For example, the word for create is used after creating the earth, the words after that are more like, made new, or re-create.
Hence, there is a gap between day 1 of creation and day 2. This could be for untold millennia.
Similar word use for global preAdamic flood being separate from localized Noahic flood.

How do you reconcile Adam with prehistoric man?

[jonesy]

not sure what you mean, but in this model, prehistoric man existed before Adamic flood. So Adam came along in point 6.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Education and knowledge is largely important in how a person sees religion. The western world probably has a higher level of education and knowledge hence its declining numbers....and belief in the 6000 year theory.

That's the key right there. In some countries, or regions of particular countries, religion is a substitute for education. Especially in poor areas where missions and clergy are the only hope for people who want to learn to read or even to learn agricultural practices. Even in North America, I would wager that most people who are creationists come from poor areas and have little formal education.

And then in some really poor areas where people are confronted with mortality on a daily basis, religion and faith becomes something for their minds to fall back on when all they have is daily suffering. It is going to be a lot more important to them than some in a developed country.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by jonesy

As I understand it, the story goes
1. God created the earth and filled it with creatures and stuff
2. Life goes on for untold eons in this state. (Millions of years, who knows)
3. Lucifer rebelled with 1/3 of the angels
4. Angels (now demons) cast to earth, wreak havoc on the inhabitants. Including sons of God mingling with sons of Man (source of giants, Time of Atlantis?)
5. God destroys the earth in pre Adamic flood. (This was global wipeout)
6. Starts over with Adam (6000 years ago)
7. Things go on.....as recounted in OT (sort of bibilcal history from here)
8. Much more localized flood in Noahs time, earth naturally repopulates.
9. God says, I can't keep smiting the earth, I won't do it anymore.

In other words.....

1. The man himself made everything, animals, fauna, dinosaurs...he was proud!

2. Everyone lived happily ever after until....

3. Gods right hand man...Beelzebub has a nervous breakdown and leaves the boardroom table. He takes 1/3 of Gods workforce with him. It must have been better wages or working hours?

4. Gods little Angels and now little devils, populated the earth, and became Beelzebubs henchmen or little Devils. This causes the creatures to copulate, party, smoke dope and generally act bad.

5. The Good God in a FIT of rage destroys everything....heck he even throws the blueprints away while mumbling about poor genetics and that bugger Beelzebub.

6. God feels morose about destroying everything...meanwhile Beelze and his devil buddies move underground. God picks up some dirt...throws it in the air and says...Adam be born...and he was. Adam gets lonely...God understands and tears a rib from Adams chest...throws it in the air and proclaims...woman...then the whole apple and snake thing yadayadayadayada...

7. the damned Devils keep causing problems....the one team that God just cant seem to defeat. God says I know...Ill drown the buggers...but worries about wrecking everything once again. He calls an old friend...a REAL old friend...600 year old Noah and asks him to bilz de boat...Noah as a good old Newf would, bilzes de boat and brings it home to Liza. God then says Noah...gather two of every animal and bring them onto your boat...Noah mutters something under his breath...but does as the Man says. God makes it rain...and rain....and rain...it ****ed down rain so hard it literally flooded the ENTIRE earth...go figure. You see God wanted to drown all those devils that couldnt get the 6:00 boat to Eden.

8. The sun comes out...Noah lets the passengers out...and lo and behold the smitten old man once again finds that he didnt rid the earth of the devil again...he sighed...and called John Smith an old friend and said John...are you Moreman than Noah?

Is that about right?

[jonesy]

once you wipe off the sarcasm and anger, yah

what's with the little ninja/burka guy?

[Reggie Dunlop]

I believe God gave us The Flintstones to show us man and dinosaur could peacefully coexist.

[photon]

And that huge brontosaurus ribs can be a tasty if unwieldy meal.

[Sample00]

wow man...can you guys pass the joint??

[RedMan12]

pass the dutchie from the left hand side.

religion is far out there man.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

To me--and I think I may have said this before--evolutionary theory and religion in fact represent altogether different kinds of truth. Evolution is an attempt to explain how life arose and developed on earth. It is supported by ample scientific evidence, and people who don't believe in it are by and large crackpots. It doesn't necessarily or naturally contradict religious belief--which is more or less an attempt to explain why life arose and developed on earth: why do we exist, what's our purpose, etc. etc.

If you think about it, religion does virtually nothing to answer the how, while evolutionary theory does virtually nothing to answer the why. This is why people can easily be Christians who believe in evolution. It's also why it's a bit distressing that in American political culture it's become an either/or proposition. I'm not personally religious, but I can easily understand how someone can believe both things.

[Neeper]

Cheese, I must ask... why do you ALWAYS have to debate religion? You know there's no point, let them believe what they want.

[Skyceman]

It is supported by ample scientific evidence, and people who don't believe in it are by and large crackpots.

I'm a crackpot then because I don't believe in it. There are far too many holes in Evolutionary theory to trust it.

Here's a small clip from an article written in the Herald doubting the theory:

At the 1966 Wistar Institute Symposium, Sir Peter Medawar expressed this widespread skepticism on behalf of an imposing assembly of scientists. The fantastical idea that all life began from non-life, then evolved by gradual random mutation and natural selection from a single-celled common ancestor into complex higher life forms, has fallen on hard times.

Molecular biologist Michael Denton spoke for many scientists in his lucid Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, when he wrote that "ultimately, the Darwinian theory of evolution is . . . the great cosmogenic myth of the 20th century." A pseudo-scientific Genesis story that presents God as a blind process instead of a willful creator. Well, the reputational fur -- uh, feathers -- are flying.

And yet the broader public is largely unaware of this bitter dispute. Museums and textbooks continue to display standard models of, for example, the famous "horse sequence" (tiny weird horse transforms into normal big horse over millennia). But Dr. Niles Eldredge, a curator of the American Museum of Natural History, said: "It (the horse sequence) has been presented as the literal truth in textbook after textbook " and complained that this is "speculative," and "lamentable." Meaning, possibly a lie.

The public also believes all critics of evolution theory are religious nuts, when in fact the main thrust of criticism comes from a variety of fields within science itself, mostly from agnostics doubting Darwin as much as God.

Some argue that even the basic idea of gradual evolution is self-defeating because if species depend on optimal adaptation for survival, then anything on the way to becoming optimal couldn't survive to adapt, could it?

And then, there's the problem of simultaneity. The evolution of interactive parts of organisms (the iris, the cornea, the eyelid flap, say) would all have to change at once. How could a blind process orchestrate such harmony?

There is no good answer. That's why Darwin himself said that "the human eye, to this day, gives me a cold shudder," and, "the sight of a feather in a peacock's tail . . . makes me sick."

[photon]

For some reason opponents of evolution seem to think that finding one aspect of it that isn't complete yet or doesn't fully describe observations invalidates the whole theory... that's simply not the case (in science anyway). A theory best describes observed data, and if new data invalidates one aspect of or the entire theory, a new one will take its place. So far nothing has been able to better describe the observations. (And don't say intelligent design, that's not science).

Darwin's full statement was:

"The eye to
this day gives me a cold shudder, but when I think of the fine known
gradation my reason tells me I ought to conquer the odd shudder."

Sounds a bit different.

People also seem to think that science should always follow logic, when in fact science is full of things that defy "common" logic but are logical in their own context.

Just because Darwin didn't understand at the time he wrote that how the eye could have evolved doesn't mean it didn't and it doesn't mean he didn't believe his own theories. It just means he just saw it as something that needed to be overcome. And there's been tons of data on eyes that since then.

From reading a few reviews on Deton's book; seems his misunderstanding of the theory led him to quite a few of his conclusions. I haven't read it though.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Neeper

Cheese, I must ask... why do you ALWAYS have to debate religion? You know there's no point, let them believe what they want.

Cus its what I do Neeper...I would assume the same as you would if it was a Photography thread.
All sides must always be equally represented....and mine has been held back for far too long.